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From: brianc@daedalus (Brian Colfer)
Newsgroups: comp.ai,talk.philosophy.misc
Subject: Re: Free will and responsibility.
Summary: QM & Chaos
Keywords: Behaviorism, materialism, dogma, science
Message-ID: <2095@ucsfcca.ucsf.edu>
Date: 16 Jun 89 16:11:03 GMT
References: <10333@ihlpb.ATT.COM> <3850@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu> <52019@linus.UUCP> <533@orawest.UUCP> <2586@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu> <386@edai.ed.ac.uk> <149@unix.SRI.COM> <421@edai.ed.ac.uk>
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Reply-To: brianc@daedalus.ucsf.edu (Brian Colfer)
Organization: UCSF Dept. of Lab Med
Lines: 49

In article <421@edai.ed.ac.uk> cam@edai (Chris Malcolm) writes:

And here is M. Ellis

>>
>>    Lots of "ifs" there. First, and least important, is that the brain
>>    isn't causally determined because of QM + Chaos theory (either one
>>    in themselves is not sufficient): Brain state n+1 is provably not
>>    "determined" by brain state n plus sense data. Also notice you
>>    neglected to mention "output" or "control data".

Mike get off the QM (quantum mechanics) thing... according to this reasoning 
we should consider everything to be non-determined rocks, trees, movement 
of planets.  We can say all sorts of nonsense by evoking mystical forces,
here QM.  And Chaos theory ... come on ... chaos theory **does** still
express a causal relationship but just one that is so complex ( too many
variables ) that we can not predict state N+1 ( where N is just before 
things become too complex).

I'm saying that according to QM the brain is **just** as determined as 
everything else.  If we deal with everything else (but the brain) as if it 
was determined why not treat the Brain the same way...

Either the brain is *all* physical matter or it isn't ... which do think?
If it is then the same "laws" applicable to the rest of the universe 
apply to it also.  If it isn't then you must evoke spirtual metaphysical
crap. (Flame throwers on..? Let me get my fire suit)

Are thoughts, beliefs, desires etc. behaviors?

>But what's QM? And why is Chaos in itself insufficient to carry your
>point? 

They are not separate or together.

Science is not a bunch of theories it is a method of investigation. 
There are two tensions in science: deductive and inductive reasoning.
People will extrapolate to the Nth degree but the real meat of science
is valid evidence ... For a discussion of validity in Science see 
Cook & Campbell _Quasi-experimentaion_ 1978, or even Kerlinger
_Foundations of behavioral research_  1973. 
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