Xref: utzoo news.admin:6060 alt.config:1081
Path: utzoo!attcan!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!apple!voder!pyramid!tub!tmpmbx!doitcr!chiuur!cmk
From: cmk@chiuur.UUCP (Christian Kaiser)
Newsgroups: news.admin,alt.config
Subject: Re: An apology, and a question (about uucp in Germany)
Message-ID: <553@chiuur.UUCP>
Date: 21 Jun 89 11:55:54 GMT
References: <786@redsox.bsw.com>
Reply-To: cmk@chiuur.UUCP (Christian Kaiser)
Distribution: alt,news,world
Organization: Home sweet home, Munich, West Germany
Lines: 114

In article <786@redsox.bsw.com> campbell@redsox.bsw.com (Larry Campbell) writes:
)Recently a student in Germany posted a "Hello, anyone out there, please
)post if you can hear me, because receiving mail costs me money" message
)to alt.sources.
[..]
)Now, my question (and I'd prefer to get answers only from people in Germany,
)who know, rather than people in the US, who are guessing).

Although I was not very pleased with Frank's posting (I flamed him too for
using alt.sources :-), I hope I can help you; I'm facing the same situation
as Frank.

 Let me first explain what I mean when I use "we" in the following text.
In Germany there is a very active UUCP-net (called "sub-Netz") that is
not registered in the official maps. It consists of about 100 sites
that are exchanging mail and an own newsgroup hierarchy (in German language)
since December 1987. Participation is (like in the U.S.) free; everyone
can connect his machine. There is even a working UUCP-map service similar
to comp.mail.maps. There are connections to similar nets in Italy and
Switzerland.

)  What is going on
)in Germany that makes getting a news feed so unbelievably expensive?  I am
)really curious about this.  One of the followups to the original posting
)said:
[..]
)I really don't understand this.  Who do you have to pay the $200 to?

 First, telephone fees in Germany are *MUCH* higher than in the U.S.; for
a call to the USA you pay about $2 per minute, and there are no night time
rates.
 But that's not the main point. In Europe, there is an organization called
EUUG (European Unix Users Group) which has taken over the task to bring
USENET to Europe (thanks anyway!). That's not exactly cheap, especially
if you transmit 1+ MByte of News a day via international X.25 lines.
 Because of this and because there are no big companies who do the trans-
mission for free, the EUUG has to *sell* news and mail. That's ok, really.
 It's just the fees they want and their (sometimes) wierd and restrictive
policies that are preventing students, private persons and small companies
to subscribe.

)In the US, you just find a local Usenet site with a friendly system
)administrator and set up a uucp link.  If it's a local call, it's free.
)What prevents you from doing that in Germany?

 The EUUG. We once found a friendly host that got it's News and Mail from
EUUG and would spool it to us for free. The EUUG people found out about
it and were VERY upset. They even threatened to cut our friendly host off.
So no Usenet news for us and some trouble understanding the EUUG's
policies. :-)

)  Even if local calls
)aren't free, $200/month seems hard to believe (I suspect that, with
)decent modems, I could get a full feed from California for less than
)that, at night time rates).

No way... We calculated that a *very* limited newsfeed from USA (1 MB / day,
using a Telebit modem) would cost $1000 - $1500 a month. It would be much
cheaper if we'd find someone who would call us from the U.S. if we'd pay
in advance... :-)

However:
 A few months ago, we negotiated a very fair tariff for students and
non-commercial sites with our friendly German EUUG backbone "unido" (I
was personally involved there).
 To get the permission to receive Usenet news on one's local machine one
would have to pay $20 a month to "unido". To relieve "unido" from all the
administrative effort for these sites (about 80-100), a central accounting
office would have had to be run by us. This office would have to pay all
the costs that these sites cause to "unido".
 But there's a catch that has kept us from using this offer yet: For every
kB of mail to OR FROM(!) overseas one still would have to pay about $0.70.
 Imagine how easy it is to get 100, 200 or more kB of mail that you didn't
ask for (remember the 70 kB you sent to Frank :-). Imagine someone who
gets a megabyte of mail accidentally and can't pay it!
 Finally, no one wanted to take the personal risk to run that "central
accounting office", which definitely would have to pay for the megabyte
even if the guy who caused these costs couldn't afford it.

 Currently, we are looking for a cheaper and better way to get connected
to Usenet, because we know it *can* be much cheaper. Maybe we already have
a solution, but it's not sure yet.

)I could maybe understand people chipping in to defray the costs of the
)transatlantic traffic, but $200 per month per site??  There are presently
)235 sites listed in the German uucp map;  $200 x 235 = $47,000, and I
)can NOT believe that it costs $47,000 per month just to get Usenet
)traffic across the ocean!!

 Only few German sites get Usenet news; most are paying only for being
allowed to send and receive mail (which is cheaper). Nevertheless, the
EUUG people have never told anyone what their real costs are and how they
justify their tariffs. :-(
We'd like to know, too!

)Please educate me!

		I hope that helps,
			Christian

P.S. If you want to reach me by mail, please remember that my site (chiuur)
     is NOT listed in the official German UUCP maps and that "unido" refuses
     to route this mail. Use "...!pyramid!tmpmbx!doitcr!chiuur!cmk".
     Unfortunately, I have to pay for these mails, too, so please cut down
     the volume. :-)
P.P.S. This is *not* a complain about unido's policies. They have been
     fair, and we can partially understand why they can't do much more
     for us. We simply have to find another way.
P.P.P.S. I used alt.config instead of alt.sources to make sure that my
     posting gets anywhere and that I receive followups. It seems to be
     a more appropriate place, anyway. :-)
-- 
Christian Kaiser | cmk@chiuur.UUCP | "Manche Leute wissen bis heute nicht, dass
Munich, FRG      | +49 89 4391852  |  sie dazugehoerten." -- Heinz Hoetten