Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!att!cbnews!military
From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re: dogfighting
Message-ID: <7451@cbnews.ATT.COM>
Date: 14 Jun 89 03:26:53 GMT
References: <7022@cbnews.ATT.COM> <7128@cbnews.ATT.COM>
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From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
>... someone on the western front
>(Hans Marseille unless I'm mistaken) had shot down 158 British planes,
>and since one plane flown by the British was worth three flown by
>Russians, he wasn't the leader :)  I can guess how the Soviets must
>have reacted to this...

Well, he did spend some years in a Soviet prison; perhaps this remark
contributed! :-)

Although Hartmann's kill total is generally thought accurate, Marseille's
is classed as doubtful last I heard.  He did a lot of deflection shooting --
shooting at a target crossing his nose at speed -- and while he was quite
definitely good at it, British loss records don't back up some of his
claims.  There is suspicion that a significant fraction of his "kills" may
have been only damaged.

[mod.note:  There is one highly-disputed case from the Desert, where
Marseille claimed a large number of aircraft over a 3-day period;
the British responded that that number exceeded their losses for the
period.  However, when the losses of the South Africans are included,
the number is possible (provided, of course, that the rest of the Luftwaffe
shot down very few aircraft.)  In any case, Marseille's successes are
highly contested. - Bill ]

No such doubt arises for Hartmann, since *his* rule on gunnery was not to
open fire until the target filled his whole windshield.  Not for the faint
of heart, but effective.

                                     Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology
                                 uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu