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From: gazit@lear.cs.duke.edu (Hillel Gazit)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: umm...silly question, but...
Message-ID: <17669@paris.ics.uci.edu>
Date: 13 Jun 89 18:08:00 GMT
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Reply-To: gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel Gazit)
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Sorry for submitting ny previous article twice.  I thought that it got
lost, and the second version was much longer because the moderator
asked me to explain what I meant.  --Hillel

[No, this wasn't Hillel's problem -- it was a snafu in the distributor
program.  This response is also posted late because I thought it was
another duplicate but instead it really was sent to me.  My deepest
apologies to Hillel...  --Cindy]

-------------------------

#I think what Ann was getting at is that power and control are not necessarily
#the only issues and that a viewpoint which doesn't focus on struggles for
#dominance may be more productive. - MHN  [Miriam]

Feminism hold some power (AA etc.), feminists have always talked about
how men dominate the society, forced women to play feminine rule,
reworte the history etc.  And what's Ann's summary?

@You men, always talking about power and control!  :) [Ann]

Look Ann, if you don't want to talk about power and control that's
fine with me, but please don't present in the "You men,..." way.

#Too late for what?  Feminism has changed considerably since its inception

Too late to look inside, and too late to build trust with most men
(the two issues are related).

#in the 1700's.  Changes in the past 20 years have been more rapid but so
#have societal changes in general.  Can opponents of feminism learn to
#judge people by what they believe now rather than what they believed 20
#years ago in a radically different world? - MHN  [Miriam]

Most feminists say something like "We are for equal rights", and I
agree with that goal.  What I don't agree about the way they go.

For example, feminists have claimed that Affirmative Action is the
right war to have more women in engineering.  There have been more
than ten years of AA, and by the report that Cindy published in
soc.women the number of women in engineering goes *down*.

The solution?  Well, we need more AA...

IMO the feminists are smart enough to see that they lose ground, but
they prefer to lose ground and not to fight discrimination against
men.  They have the full right to act this way, but it's clear that my
idea and their idea about equal rights is *very* different.

I don't judge feminists by what they believe because I prefer to judge
them by what they do...

Hillel                                  gazit@cs.duke.edu

"Even if one cares passionately and believes in the validity of some Movement,
one can be, at best, only a fellow traveler; and that smacks of sycophancy."
                            --  Harlan Ellison