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From: ames!claris!apple!netcom!onymouse@ncar.UCAR.EDU (John DeBert)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: re: definition of feminism, can a man be a feminist?
Message-ID: <18424@paris.ics.uci.edu>
Date: 21 Jun 89 18:50:54 GMT
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in article <16898@paris.ics.uci.edu>, drc@beach.cis.ufl.EDU (David Cabana) says:
> 
> In article <4960@umd5.umd.edu> cwilliam@umd5.umd.edu (Christopher Williamson) 
> writes:
>>
>>    I would like to know your feelings on wether a man can ever be considered
>>a feminist, and if so what exactly defines feminism.
> ... some stuff omitted ...
>>    I have been told by different people, men and women, that "men will never
>>fully understand," which I agree with; however, whites can never fully
>>understand the plight of the blacks earlier in our nation's history and, yet
>>many prominent whites helped in the struggle to correct injustices.
>>
> 
> If one accepts the position that a man cannot be a feminist, then
> one accepts the position that a person's gender can render that person
> incapable of holding (even perhaps understanding) certain beliefs.
> This is sexism, pure and simple.  Similarly, the claim that a person is
> incapable of understanding something because of that person's race is 
> racism, pure and simple.
> 
>>    As a male supporter of women's rights, I often get in this arguement. 
>>Being the only male in some upper level "female studies" courses at the Univ.
>>of Maryland, I constantly find myself being besieged with little or no 
>>defense as to why I have a "right" to take women's studies courses and if
>>I can truely call myself a feminist, or even a supporter of women's rights.
> 
> It strikes me as ironic that (presumed) feminists, of all people, would
> question your right to take a class because of your sex.  Bigotry has many
> forms.
> 
> 				David Cabana
> 

Yes, a man can be a feminist and even considered a feminist. Such men
are as discriminated against as most women, and taken just as
seriously.

A man who is also an overt feminist can understand very well what it
means to be discriminated against.

There are men who are "different" and do not conform to the
stereotypical classifications of what a man is supposed to be. They
are very uncomfortable with being masculine and tend more often than
not to express themselves in feminine ways. They are discriminated
against by other men in the same way that women are (mostly for
different reasons) and they are also discriminated aagainst by women,
including feminist women.

And there the men who are "closet feminists," who outwardly do all the
things that demonstrate that they are another "Man" but who secretly
root for womens' causes.

And there are those between the two.

It seems to be a masculine tendency to "exactly define" things, to set
and define clear bounds in which to categorize things. Feminism isn't
"exactly" anything as it not only encompasses womens' liberty and
power over themselves but also some "masculine" things and even some
things that belong to both or neither.

Would the women in this group be so kind as to list at least the
basics of feminism?

My list includes:
 To have control over her own life and body.
 To be accepted on equal terms
 To be free from any and all sexual harrassment, pressures and demands
 To be taken seriously.
 To be be considered for employment on the basis of ability and 
    accomplishment and not on how well she conforms to expectations. 
 
There are others but I will not bore you all with the details - now.

As for the idea that white men cannot understand black mens' life,
that's fact, not racism. White men, as a whole, cannot relate to
anything outside their system. Everything is handed to them virtually
on a silver platter because they are white. They are protected from
the problems of color and cannot comprehend them. White women come
closer to understanding such things but still have great difficulty
comprehending what life is like for a black woman, for example.

Actually, racism is part of it but it is still a fact.


J. DeBert
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