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From: druid@robotics.jpl.nasa.GOV (Andrew Kerne)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: feminism and men
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Date: 22 Jun 89 06:40:43 GMT
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<> druid@robotics.jpl.nasa.GOV (Andrew Kerne) writes:
<>>
<>>I don't think that men are in general have the right to say what is
<>>feminist -- it is something essentially defined by women.
<>	perhaps the sexist circumstance of our society defines feminism.
<
<	I thought that the whole premise of the feminist movement was 
<the equality of women with respect to men - that is, the abolishment of
<sexual oppression.  By saying men have 'no right...' you are oppressing
<and that is as bad as a man opressing you.  Its too bad some people have
<distorted the ideals of feminism with uncontrollable anger - unfortunately
<these are the people we hear loudest - the UNfeminists.

First of all, let me point out to you that i am a man.

I'm not saying that men have nothing to do with feminism; i believe
that many times, we have a place in feminist discussion and action.
We can understand quite a bit of feminism.  We can do support at
actions, we can struggle to remove sexism from our personal
relationships (we grew up in this culture, its bound to be there).  We
can try to point out sexist behaviour by other men when we encounter
it, rather than feel like its none of our business.

We can appreciate feminism and feminist wimmin in our daily lives.  We
can read about feminism and discuss the ideas.  We can try to learn
that listening is very important, that what you hear is just as
important than what you say, many times, more important.

I even believe that in some cases (and this, i think would be very
convtroversial) men may become more knowledgable about feminist ideas
in some cases than SOME wimmin, if the men pursue that knowledge, but
note, this is a second hand knowledge that can come from discussion
and reading.  It is a limited sort of knowledge.  We may even have
similar kinds of experiences, but men do not have wimmin's
experiences!

I believe that feminism in its essence, by definition, is about
wimmin's experience, and we men know less about it.  We can be
included when and if wimmin want us to be.  When I work with wimmin, i
try to appreciate feminist positions, i like to be supportive of and
included in feminism.  Some wimmin will give that to me, and some
won't.  When wimmin shut me out as such, i understand on some level
intellectually, i try not to take it personally, and still, my
feelings are hurt, and i don't like it.

Please let yourself be open to participation in something you can't
control.  Please.  It's very important.

p.s.  I, for one, would like to see you who post to soc.feminism more
often talking about your own personal feelings and personal
experience, rather than trying to make generalizations and take the
role of an authority.  I would like that better in discussions.  I
think it also has something to do with "feminist process".

p.p.s. (This is a bit besides the point, and i think that if we need
to have this type of discussion more, we should have a seperate
newsgroup, men and feminism -- my last posting was short, because i
didn't want to clog up a space about feminism with men's experience.
Anyway...)  I will also mention that my years of experience with
feminism has lead me to put a lot more value on my relationships with
men.  I need to know that i and other men can be nurturing, that we
are not the stereotype of male.  I need to experience that to have a
whole self-image.