Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!csd4.milw.wisc.edu!bionet!agate!shelby!unix!chips2.sri.com!ellis
From: ellis@chips2.sri.com (Michael Ellis)
Newsgroups: comp.ai
Subject: Re: free will
Message-ID: <465@unix.SRI.COM>
Date: 28 Jun 89 00:35:21 GMT
References: <896@orbit.UUCP>
Sender: news@unix.SRI.COM
Reply-To: ellis@chips2.sri.com.UUCP (Michael Ellis)
Organization: SRI International
Lines: 44

> Scott Burke

>  I'm sure that QM and chaos both play a part in the behavior of the human
>brain -- but I hardly hold out any hopes of it playing the role that many
>people want to make it fill, that of savior for the doctrine of free will.    

    I for one hardly think QM+CT "play the savior for the doctrine of free 
    will". They do however demolish determinism and certain classic
    arguments against free will.

>A case in point, the above.  The actions of a "free agent", from all
>appearances and our ability to describe them, appear to be the result of some
>"random chooser".  Put in a different light, all we are saying is that this
>incredibly complex "system" appears to display "random" behavior.  But the
>chaos theory itself is both savior and devil here, for it is the central idea
>of chaos theory that perfectly determinate systems (such as the weather)
>display what appears to be "random" behavior, by virtue of their complexity*. 

    Weather doesn't just appear to be random; it really is random, by the same
    QM+CT argument I have repeated before. 

>It is not that complex systems defy the laws of determinism... 
>..
>..    [[Lots of declarations of faith to defunct 19th century dogmas]]
>..
>and is at.. rock bottom COMPLETELY DETERMINED.  

    Your devotion to the Correct and True principle Universal Determinism
    in the face of massive scientific evidence to the contrary is inspiring.
    Credis quia absurdum, no doubt.

>Chaos is not the science of random systems -- the systems
>themselves are quite determinate -- it is the science of non-random systems
>that exhibit* random behavior (by virtue of the complex interaction of
>sub-processes in the whole of the system).

     Exactly so. But if CT is correct, then the global behavior of
     sufficiently complex systems is sensitive to infinitesimal
     fluctuations, everywhere. QM provides infinitesimal fluctuations
     everywhere. Ergo, QM+CT *together* demonstrate that sufficiently
     complex systems are genuinely unpredictable on both micro- and macro-
     scopic levels. QED.

-michael