Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!NUSVM.BITNET!GBOPOLY1 From: GBOPOLY1@NUSVM.BITNET (fclim) Newsgroups: comp.sys.apollo Subject: Re: '' in pathnames Message-ID: <8906300424.AA03855@umix.cc.umich.edu> Date: 30 Jun 89 04:27:00 GMT Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU Organization: The Internet Lines: 122 X-Unparsable-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 89 12:11:08 SST This may seem like correspondence between Darryl and myself. I've decided to send this to this list because I support putting '' back. In article <441fd6ee.b11a@falcon.engin.umich.edu>, conliffe%caen.engin.umich .edu%mailrus.uucp@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Darryl C. Conliffe) writes > In article <8906290941.AA13520@umix.cc.umich.edu>, GBOPOLY1@NUSVM.BITNET > (fclim) writes: > > >From: conliffe%caen.engin.umich.edu%mailrus.uucp@csd4.milw.wisc.edu > > > (Darryl C. Conliffe) > > >Organization: U of M Engineering, Ann Arbor, Mich. > > >Message-Id: <441bc082.b11a@falcon.engin.umich.edu> > > >References: <8906281243.AA02709@umix.cc.umich.edu> > > > > > >I agree, Scott, that some of the things an Apollo workstation brings > > >to a user are better than "standard stuff". For example, I snicker > > >at the "I don't have time to learn the DM editor" comments; > > >it's so darn intuitive that I wonder what could be easier than > > >hitting the LINE DEL key to delete the line, typing characters > > >in input mode where you place the cursor, or overstriking by hitting > > >SHIFT-INS and having a visual marker of the input mode? > > > > SHIFT-INS isn't intuitive -- I didn't know about it until now. > > I like vi because ya don't have to move too much. > > > You are right. SHIFT-INS in itself is not intuitive. The concept of > toggling > INSERT and OVERSTRIKE mode is, and I look for INS on a keyboard to make > use of it. INS is above MARK on the key, and I know enough about the > Apollo to know that to toggle INS, I hit SHIFT-INS. I also hit INS on a PC > when I am looking for that toggling feature, and usually find it operative. The default mode on a PC is OVERSTRIKE (Norton Editor notwithstanding); whereas it is INSERT on an Apollo. So INS sounds like the right choice of wording on a PC. But it's counter-intuitive on Apollo. > BTW, if you are just finding out about it, who taught you about the > systems basics? They should have made that simple point evident. Sounds > like a case of poor technology transfer. (I am *NOT* implying that it > was your fault. Someone, maybe Apollo, dropped the ball.) Nobody introduced me to Apollo. I just walked in, applied for an account and use Domain/IX straight off. What I know about Aegis, I picked up by reading the manuals and thro comp.sys.apollo. I don't read manuals from page 1 to the last page; but flip to the pages whenever I have to. I end up transferred to the Computer Centre and made sys_admin. In this capacity, I need to know about Aegis 'cos there are Aegis users besides Domain/IX users. > > >Or, have you ever seen someone introduced to an Apollo by someone > > >who knows only vi read a file? He vi's it. I love the look > > >on that users face when I point to the file name on a pad and open > > >it. > > > > How about someone who knows only Aegis and have never seen other Unix > > boxes? He'll look everywhere for that @#$%&*))( EDIT key when he comes > > upon a Sun. > > > And if he goes to an IBM-PC he'll have the same challenge to *LEARN* > how to best use the machine. Computers and workstations are nice, > but one still has to know *SOMETHING* to be able to make the > most effective use of 'em. I've worked in situations where I > was working on a PC, an Apollo, and a DG machine at various > times during the same day. While sometimes confusing, their differences > never were *INGHIBITIN*, just annoying at times. > > Besides, you avoid the problem by staying on the Apollo which *DOES* > have the EDIT key! :=) (In fact, I often moved files to the Apollo > workstation to make use of DM. I have never moved anything for > the priviledge of getting to vi!) I brought up the point about finding the EDIT key on a SUN because I find your argument to be flawed. A guy just introduced to any new machine isn't going to know the best way to use the machine right off. If he's keen, he'll learn more about it and gradually master it. I have seen users (ie users new to Apollo but not to Unix) using more, cat or vi to view a file instead of m3 (the mouse's right button). But after I told them about m3, they started to use m3. They are *not* dumb; they just don't know such a beast (m3) exists. (Darryl, that's how I interpreted your view of such users -- they are dumb not to use m3). What I wanted to say is that vi is not that user-unfriendly as it is hyped to be. There are some shortcomings (like not knowing when it's in command or input mode); but once you have the hang of it, it's not that difficult to use. Its choice of characters for commands is more mnemonic than EDIT's choice. Using for \search\; F6 for a delete-word command; etc isn't what I consider to be mnemonic; I keep referring to HELP DM COMMANDS to figure out the fastest way to delete a word. Of course, if I use the DM editor enuff times, these commands are going get burned into my brain. This fact also applied to vi. If you have perseverance to go beyond the first couple of lessons on vi, you'll going to find that it's an ok editor to use. I grant you the learning curve is steeper for vi, but it don't take an Einstein to learn and use vi. > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > > fclim -- killed by a flame -- score: 0 > > Darryl -- killed by a flame -- score: 0 > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > > > Ok on the score. Perhaps it is even because each person > has his/her own taste. What Scott and I are trying to say > is that we'd like to preserve our own. (At least, that's what > *I* was thinking ... sorry if that doesn't cover you, Scott! :=) I am sorry for giving you the impression that I am keeping tabs on scores. Maybe I should have added one more line saying that all non-Apollo users are winners. What I am trying to say is that we are flaming each other instead of helping. Flamers are in a no-win situation. All this flamage started on some bad decision by Apollo. I agreed with you and Scott -- they should have left '\' untouched. Apollo should make the system flexible for everyone to customize their environments to individual tastes. Remember the flames I send over about DM "shut" and "ex" and the ability for sys_admins to break into a GPR_$borrow mode? Furthermore, Domain/IX users (at least at SR9.7) are unable to use stty to set the kill and werase characters (BSD only) and -echo on a Domain input pad. These deficiencies are among what I consider INHIBITING. fclim --- gbopoly1 % nusvm.bitnet @ cunyvm.cuny.edu computer centre singapore polytechnic dover road singapore 0513.