Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!att!cbnews!military From: vrdxhq!vrdxhq.verdix.com!bsmart@uunet.UU.NET (Bob Smart) Newsgroups: sci.military Subject: Re: Dogfighting tactics Summary: F-15 vs F-16 Message-ID: <7940@cbnews.ATT.COM> Date: 5 Jul 89 12:36:56 GMT References: <7884@cbnews.ATT.COM> Sender: military@cbnews.ATT.COM Organization: Verdix Corporation, Chantilly, VA Lines: 75 Approved: military@att.att.com From: vrdxhq!vrdxhq.verdix.com!bsmart@uunet.UU.NET (Bob Smart) In article <7884@cbnews.ATT.COM>, shafer@elxsi.dfrf.nasa.gov writes: > > > From: shafer@elxsi.dfrf.nasa.gov > The most important principle in dogfighting is to keep the fight on > your terms, rather than your opponent's. > > For example, if you're in an F-15 against an F-16, you'll try to keep > the fight vertical, because the F-16 can't go vertical as well as the > F-15 can. You'll be in control and you'll get the weapons solution > first. On the other hand, if you're in the F-16, you'll try to keep > the fight horizontal, because the F-15 can't go horizontal as well as > the F-16 can. I'm not sure about this. Most F-15 pilots that came thru my maintanence debriefing shop had no problems turning with an F-16, they just had to have selective hearing. You see an F-15 is old technology the stick is actually connected to the control surfaces. an F-16 is different It's stick is a little joystick that only suggests to the computer where the pilot would like to go. In a fighter this is a big difference. If an eagle driver wants to make a tighter turn he pulls the stick tighter. if he passes certain limits he hears a tone in his headset. If he turns tighter the tone gets harsher. If he persists a voice comes in with 'over g, over g' until he gets below the pescribed limit ( determined by weight,airspeed, altitude, etc). In an F-16 the pilot pulls his joystick suggesting he wants to turn tighter. when the aircraft hits what it feels are it's limits it stops tightening the turn. Therefor a pilot with selective hearing in a 15 can out turn a 16. If the unit is being evaluated and someone asks why the over G indicater is tripped the pilot just looks you in the eye and says "I guess we better right up the warning system I didn't hear a thing except the growl" ( the AIM-9 lock on tone). We write it up crew chief asks the pilot on next flight if it worked okay or has comm shop check out the comm system and signs it off. The other comment about the 15 vs 16 I heard was that the 16 lost momentum faster in a turn and therefor if the two turned together the 16 would 'fall out' first due to lost air speed. I guess 2 F-100s are better than one :-) Don't get me wrong the F-16 got plenty of respect from the eagle drivers but they did not respect the fly by wire. as one put it "If I have a mig or a missle on my a-- I dont want a f---ing computer telling me I might bend the plane I WANT TO BEND THE F---ING PLANE better a bent plane than no plane at all." Oh , how high is over G? Before the fancy sesor system it was an arbitrary figure ( I think 7.2 G) because that was the worst case for speed,altitude weight. With the newer system ( on F-15C&D models) it varied to over 9 G At redflag we saw 12G regularly and our wing had a plane take 19+ for a very short time and come home. The wings werepermanantly bent, the tips were 2-3 inches higher than they were supposed to be and the wing tanks leaked some but it flew back to St Louis to be evaluated. The 19 Gs were not done on purpose ( but the 12-13 were) > > To quote Lt Dave Pace, USN (Topgun Instructor): > Know and use all the capabilities in your airplane. If you don't, > sooner or later, some guy who does use them all will kick your ass. see my comments above > -- > M F Shafer shafer@elxsi.dfrf.nasa.gov > NASA Ames Research Center arpa!elxsi.dfrf.nasa.gov!shafer > Dryden Flight Research Facility ames!elxsi!shafer > Of course I don't speak for NASA > > "A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all." > --Unknown US fighter pilot. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Doesnt surprise me at all. sounds like several I knew. Bob Smart (bsmart@verdix.com)