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From: jhpb@garage.att.com (Joseph H. Buehler)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Tradition
Message-ID: <Jun.28.01.06.15.1989.22415@athos.rutgers.edu>
Date: 28 Jun 89 05:06:17 GMT
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In article <Jun.17.00.50.03.1989.21144@athos.rutgers.edu> alberta!scott@watmath.waterloo.edu (Scott Goodwin) writes:

Scott D. Goodwin wrote:

   Could someone summarize the main arguments for and against Tradition and
   suggest some references?

Here are a few disorganized considerations.

1.  What is the 'sola scriptura' doctrine based on?

    Which Fathers of the Church taught this doctrine?  Which theologians
    in which century espoused this doctrine?  What were their criteria
    for determining doctrine?

    The sola scriptura doctrine cannot stand if it is not traditional.
    And it isn't.

2.  How do we know what belongs in Scripture and what doesn't?

    Historically, there was argument about which books were inspired and
    which were not (some were uncontested, others weren't).  The Bible
    didn't drop from Heaven ready-bound in one volume.

    Catholics have an extra seven books in their Old Testament, and some
    other bits and pieces here and there.  These books have doctrinal
    implications (e.g., Machabees on Purgatory).  Who has the proper
    canon, and how does one decide?

    You need something besides scripture to figure out the canon.  (I
    regard this as a conclusive argument against the 'sola scriptura'
    doctrine.)

3.  How does one determine what Scripture means?

    "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church."
    "I have prayed for thee [Peter], that thy faith fail not."

    How do we decide what these passages mean?  Scripture doesn't
    interpret itself.

4.  Over the past year, it has become clear to me that the Roman Catholic
    doctrines regarding:

    - Purgatory
    - the invocation of Saints
    - prayer for the dead
    - the veneration of relics
    - the canon of Scripture
    - Maria semper virgo

    have been clearly held by major orthodox Christian teachers since at
    least the 4th century AD.  In some cases the Fathers held them
    unanimously.  (The figures involved are not minor, either.  I think
    St. Augustine held all of the Catholic doctrines listed above.)

    How come it took 1100 years (until the Reformation) to figure out
    that these things are contradicted by Sacred Scripture?

    (The Roman Catholic doctrine is that the Apostles and their
    successors did not (and could not) go wrong doctrinally.  Through
    the influence of the Holy Ghost, the correct beliefs have been
    passed down from generation to generation without error.)

There is a lot of argument in t.r.m over verses from scripture, but it
is noticeable that historical justification for the various
interpretations proposed is usually sorely lacking.  Most times, even
completely absent.

But of what value is Scripture apart from the traditional interpretation
of same?

------------------

As far as references go...

1. Try the Catholic Encyclopedia (published around 1914; different from
the work called the "New" Catholic Encyclopedia) on "Tradition".  It has
a good summary.

(Perhaps also articles on "Revelation", "Scripture", and the "Church",
though I haven't checked.)

2.  Catholic apologetic works like the "Radio Replies" always cover the
subject matter.  There's lots of this kind of stuff at a very basic
level in just about any Catholic university library or Catholic
bookstore.

3. You might also read the work(s) by St. Vincent of Lerins called the
Commonitories.  He wrote after the council of Ephesus (say, 430's AD)
and addressed the question "How do we know what to believe?"  There had
been a large doctrinal crisis recently.  It is a most interesting work,
of which here's a snatch from a Catholic Patrology collection:

    I received almost always the same answer from all of them, that
    if I or anyone else wanted... to remain intact and sound in a sound
    faith, it would be necessary, with the help of the Lord, to fortify
    that faith in a twofold manner: first, of course, by the authority
    of the divine law; and then by the Tradition of the Catholic Church.

Joe Buehler