Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: ssc-vax!finney@beaver.cs.washington.edu (Ken Finney) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Scripture ends? Message-ID: Date: 4 Jul 89 09:30:54 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Lines: 48 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu I have always had problems believing that anyone can KNOW that they are saved. I am confident that many more people believe that they are saved than actually are. If you have any scriptural references for me, I would appreciate them. Ken Finney @ Boeing Arts & Entertainment [It seems to me that the whole point of the NT is that God will save anyone who relies on him for salvation. I understand your problem. If many are called but few are chosen, then there may be all these people who are deluding themselves and aren't really saved. I suggest that you read about Luther's original struggles before he was "converted". His problem was that he was never sure he had confessed completely enough, repented completely enough, etc. The only way he was able to achieve any peace was to realize that it wasn't up to him: it was God he was relying on for salvation, not on the thoroughness with which he met any requirement. It seems to me that concerns about the quality of our faith create what is in effect a Protestant equivalent of this problem. We know that our salvation doesn't depend upon any work. It is purely by faith. So now the question comes: do we have enough faith? Is it the right kind? This is turning faith right back into a work. Faith isn't a particular attitude that you have to get right in order to be saved. Faith simply means that you trust in God rather than yourself. Your salvation depends upon him, and his promises are sure. Frankly I think the term "salvation by faith" may be unfortunate. It has an unfortunate parallelism with salvation by works. It suggests that instead of being saved by our works, we are saved by our faith. I think what the Reformers really meant to say was something more like "salvation by God". I.e. instead of relying on our works we rely on God. This reliance is faith, but it's God that is its object and not our action, even our action of faith. These ideas are all through the NT, in some sense. Jesus, Paul, etc., are continually repeating the call to believe the good news that God has saved you. But some of the more directly relevant passages are John 10:9-10, Rom 8:38-39, Eph 3:12, Heb 10:19-23. As to people believing that they are saved who aren't, I guess I think it depends upon the grounds of their belief. If they believe that they are saved because Jesus died for them, then it seems to me that the whole point of the Gospel is that they are. I'm not saying that someone has to have this sort of assurance in order to be saved. Only God knows the limits (if any) of how far he will go to save people. But if God rejects people who rely on his promise of salvation, then the Church might as well close up shop. --clh]