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From: kws@stl.stc.co.uk (Ken Sleeman)
Newsgroups: comp.databases,comp.software-eng
Subject: Re: 4GL and  Application Prototyping in Databases
Summary: QBF style frames, Ingres,
Keywords: 4GL DBMS prototype maintainability OSL QBF
Message-ID: <1594@stl.stc.co.uk>
Date: 14 Jul 89 10:46:23 GMT
References: <378@proexam.UUCP>
Sender: news@stl.stc.co.uk
Reply-To: "Ken Sleeman" <kws@stl.stc.co.uk>
Followup-To: Glen Brydon.
Organization: STC Technology Limited, London Road, Harlow, Essex, UK
Lines: 48

In article <378@proexam.UUCP> glen@proexam.UUCP (Glen Brydon) writes:
>I have been trying to build applications in Ingres 4GL for several years now.
>Recently we have been trying to find someone who can help in this process, but
>have found relatively few individuals who have any significant experience in
>using this system (perhaps Ingres, but not the 4GL). I have long since become
>frustrated with the system for the following reason - there is no forms based
>method of building the framework for an application without requiring me to
>generate tons of OSL (4GL) code which ends up being traditional 3GL code.
>
>Glen Brydon

Here in sunny old England we are on the verge of completing an Ingres
Application, having used OSL. Yes we have "tons" of OSL code but it would be
heavier in C.

QBF is "quite nice" for what it does but is limited. To use QBF style frames
with the functionality we require we have written our own "qbf" frames
in OSL. This took a long time (4 person weeks) but we can now use this code
in any application and bend it to suit the application. 

At the last UK Ingres User Group meeting in London I enquired about RTI
providing a "library of tools" (actually I asked for the C code for the QBF
frames) but RTI were worried about maintenance, etc. But in a group of
almost 200 people only 7 felt that such a library was important. Without
support the request was quickly forgotten. I suspect that the majority of
people will feel the need when they rach the limitations of QBF frames.

My impression (from talking to a small number of developers) is that they
write their own QBF style frames.

Why is your BIG application difficult to maintain? Why do you continually
need to change your forms? Even if your forms undergo lots of changes it is
a fairly straightforward matter to print form details via VIFRED, but yes,
you will need to change your OSL code also - moral: get it right fairly
soon!! Easier said then done, I grant you, if the real world keeps changing.

We looked at Oracle, Ingres, Sybase, etc. before deciding on Ingres. We felt
that there was very little difference between Ingres and Oracle, as far as
application development is concerned, but I do not claim to be an expert (or
even correct).

Conclusion(?) - we have enjoyed developing our application using the Ingres
ADE. Yes QBF (at least) has limitations which are very annoying, but perhaps
we expected too much to start with. Now that we are familiar with some of
yhe vaguaries of Ingres we know what to expect and how to deal with them. 
Regards

Ken Sleeman      ( kws@stl.stc.co.uk +44-279-29531 Ext 2278 )