Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!thad From: thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga Subject: Re: Seagate. Message-ID: <20260@cup.portal.com> Date: 9 Jul 89 08:56:12 GMT References: <8907020047.AA15716@lilac.berkeley.edu> <3671@ddsw1.MCS.COM> <10403@polya.Stanford.EDU> <3687@ddsw1.MCS.COM> Organization: The Portal System (TM) Lines: 91 Re: Seagate drives ... WHY do you think Apple dropped Seagate as a supplier? Surely Apple, with its propensity for buying low and selling high, would have preferred sticking with Seagate IF there were no problems. My own experience with Seagate is extremely negative. EVERY single one of the ST251 drives (10 of them) failed with the "stiction" problem after 15 months of service ... out of warranty. When the drives are spinning, they work OK, but power them down and ... fooey. I have a collection of several HUNDRED email responses to my prior postings, every single one of which reports problems with Seagate drives. Many have read my postings in which I described conversations with Mary Gomez, the QA Manager of Seagate in Scotts Valley, and with other Seagate personnel. In *MY* opinion, these people simply don't know their own products OR they're afraid to admit the manufacturing defects. In conversations with people who REPAIR hard drives here in Silicon Valley (3 companies), they ALL report a tremendous number of problems with Seagate drives (and NOT because there are more Seagate drives "out there" than all others combined). The vast majority of the problems concern stiction, which results from errors during manufacturing ... specifically, the application of too much lubricant on the drive platters; this causes a severe meniscus at the R/W head when in park position, preventing the stepper from moving the heads upon a power-up ... and a failsafe in the main spindle driver prevents rotation if the heads don't leave park position. It has also been consistently stated by the same companies (independent of each other) that the problem does NOT arise until after about 12 months' service (AFTER the warranty expires; this may be coincidence, but ... :-) I've SEEN the problem under microscope (at the HD repair companies) and the symptom is known in the trade as "white worms" because that's what the surface of the platters looks like when too much lubricant was applied during manufacture. The ONLY solution (per ALL the HD repair companies) is to re-platter the drives (which they do for prices ranging from $60-$150 depending on the drive). This re-plattering, of course, uses platters that are NOT over- lubricated. The REASON for the overlubrication is due to (as related to me by people at the HD repair companies): 1) Seagate specs require the platters to have "one wipe" of a cloth impregnated with , 2) the assembly line workers don't "load" the rag with enough which causes an uneven application of the 3) the platter fails optical inspection because the was applied unevenly 4) the platter gets rejected and the assembly line worker doesn't meet quota 5) to avoid platter rejection, the assembly line worker NOW wipes the platter 3, 4 or even 5 times with the rag. The is now evenly distributed on the platter and the surface "looks good" in the optical inspection, and the assembly line worker meets quota 6) after the drive is in use for awhile, the excess is pushed to the INSIDE and the OUTSIDE of the platter. Anything beyond cylinder 0 is no problem because the heads won't go there; BUT, the crap that was pushed inwards (beyond, say, cylinder 820 in an ST251) is NOW is the area where the heads are parked. When you shut your drive down, the heads now are sloshing in that and the meniscus essentially GLUES the heads in place, preventing the stepper from moving them from PARK when power is re-applied. Remember, the heads are as super-polished as are the platters; the excess fluid makes for almost PERFECT bonding between the head and platter when the heads rest at park. The above scenario is NOT speculation; it is FACT. If you want the name of the , call (for example) California Disk Drive Repair Company, Rotating Memory Systems, or . The AMOUNT of excess lubricant we're talking about here is EXTREMELY small. The correct application is only one or two molecules thick. Each additional wipe deposits an additional molecular layer (or two), and it takes months before the excess pushed by the heads to the PARK area starts to cause real problems ("stiction"). Seagate manufacturing consistently has the problem with their plated media drives in both the 5-1/4" and 3-1/2" format; a LOT of reports are now coming in stating startup problems with the ST138/ST157 drives. You can find these reports in many of the Usenet newsgroups, at dealers' shops, at user group meetings, etc. Even the ST-4096 is plagued with the stiction problem as stated many times by the Customer Service Rep of JDR MicroElectronics at FAUG meetings in answer to questions from the floor. If you can get the drive spinning, it will operate fine (as my own tests have proven.) But many people simply don't have the knowledge or the ability to remove their drives, diddle the stepper shaft, reinsert the drive and power up. Thad Floryan [ thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ..!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad ]