Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!wasatch!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!mcvax!ukc!tcdcs!vax1!trolfs
From: trolfs@vax1.tcd.ie (Tommy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Re:  YALW (Yet Another Language War)
Message-ID: <858@vax1.tcd.ie>
Date: 14 Jul 89 13:30:36 GMT
References: <19135@louie.udel.EDU>
Organization: Computer Laboratory, Trinity College Dublin
Lines: 90

In article <19135@louie.udel.EDU>, pfaff@gemini.asd.contel.com (Ray Pfaff - Oakwood 457 934-8162) writes:
> Actually I have used Forth before and I like the language, but as you 
> pointed out it isn't very useful for a large project which involves many
> people working in a parallel effort, not to mention that it fosters
> bottom-up programming and hacking to the extreme (probably the reasons
> why I like it).  I stand by my statement about it being a joke in the Govern-
> ment contracting arena, because I`ve often hear the following lines when
> discussing a project:
> 
    [stuff deleted]
> Maybe I should be a little more specific;  I don't think Forth the language is
> a joke, but it certainly has been used as the punchline for quite a few.

    I think one of the main problems with Forth (I admit that there
    are a few :-), or rather not with Forth itself but with people who
    use Forth, is that they try to use it like a conventional high 
    level language. Forth is very different from other languages and
    as such it requires that the programer adopt a new approach. For
    one thing Forth is not a language, but rather a meta-language.
    This difference is very important if you want to use Forth
    seriously. If anybody is interested, there is a very good book by
    Leo Brodie called "Thinking Forth" which is a good read that
    doesn't require you to know Forth to benefit from it and will
    dispel any notions that Forth is in any way less than other
    languages.

    The reason for this article is due to a statement, by someone in
    this thread, that Forth is not very good for large applications
    involving a lot of people. I cannot speak from experience, so what
    I have to say is solely from my understanding of Forth, but I feel
    that Forth (done properly) is a very good language for large
    projects. As I have said before, Forth is a meta-language which
    means that you write WORDS(*) to describe the problem and then use
    these WORDS to solve it. This allows you to describe the problem in
    terms which are 1) easy to understand and 2) easy to work with.
    In a situation where there are a lot of people working together,
    this ability of Forth (which is really its power) makes it easier
    for ideas to be put down in code and also easier understood by
    others. C code looks like C code (and not very nice at that).
    Forth code looks like a million bucks and reads like poetry (Ok, 
    so I'm exaggerating :-). Forth programing is like object oriented
    programing. In OOP, you have to put a bit of thought into your
    classes if they are to be useful. In Forth, you have to put in
    some work on the WORDS which you will use to describe the problem at
    hand. If you do this, then the problem becomes much easier to
    handle. This means you should be able to tackle ANY size job with
    equal confidence. To conclude, I feel Forth is a very good language
    for large projects, but only if used properly (There's always a 
    catch).

    This (the posting) is really just so I could preach a bit of Forth
    to the masses. Jesus wasn't kidding when he said "Go Forth, and
    spread the word" (Ok. It's bad, I know). Anyway, hopefully there
    will be a growing number of Amiga user's doing Forth. Don't be put 
    off by dumb smucks telling you Forth is a joke. 

    : TELL-ME-A-JOKE  ." What do you think you'er reading :-)"
                                              DUMB-SMUCK ;  

    : DUMB-SMUCK ( s are always saying ) TELL-ME-A-JOKE ;


    If you are thinking of learning Forth, I suggest you get Leo
    Brodie's book "Starting Forth" and read it while you have Forth
    running. There is a Forth on one of the early Fish Disks. It's
    called MVP-Forth (Mountain View Press, I think). I haven't been
    able to use it so I can't tell you what it's like (I only got my
    Amy a week ago). Maybe someone else can post a review of it and 
    what disk it is on. If you do decide to try Forth, hang in there.
    It takes quite a while to really get to terms with it. Good luck!

    WORDS(*): Word used in this context means a word in the Forth
    sense. For people who don't know Forth at all, a word is much the
    same as a function in C.


    Afterword: This article is NOT a flame of Ray's posting. I do not
    think that Ray is a DUMB-SMUCK (just incase it reads that way).
    As he himself says, other people (I think defence contractors was
    mentioned somewhere:-) call Forth a joke and it's to them that I
    direct my rebuke. Still, I don't agree about Forth not being
    useful for large applications. Then again, what do I know?
     
-- 
 Tommy IV                                      E-mail: trolfs@vax1.tcd.ie
                   //  Amiga 500.
       $P-)     \\//      What's your's called?     
-----------------\X------------------------------------------------------
"A dirty mind is a joy forever."
-- Randy Kunkee