Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!iuvax!rutgers!mcdchg!ddsw1!karl From: karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) Newsgroups: news.admin Subject: Re: EUnet, unido and USENET Summary: More discussion regarding Unido & Usenet Keywords: unido, blacklisting, domain .de, subnet, Message-ID: <1989Jul17.190508.19700@ddsw1.MCS.COM> Date: 17 Jul 89 19:05:08 GMT References: <588@odin.cs.hw.ac.uk> <882@corpane.UUCP> <8594@attctc.DALLAS.TX.US> <1477@laura.UUCP> Reply-To: karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) Organization: Macro Computer Solutions, Inc., Mundelein, IL Lines: 131 In article <1477@laura.UUCP> ag@laura.UUCP (Anke Goos) writes: > Hi folks, > >there had been lots of articles in last weeks concerning >unido in Germany. I can't even find back all of the arguments. >Nevertheless I would like to clear some of the misunderstandings >about EUnet in Germany. Good... > >There had been the argument that Unido would demand some > >sort of monopoly for the distribution of the international > >Newsgroups inside Germany. > >This is certainly not true. Nor would we really be able to do this. >What we *are* doing though is asking the EUnet participants >not to further redistribute the international newsgroup we get >via mcvax without letting participate the third-party in the >costs all EUnet members have to carry for the international >News. Do you apply pressure, or discontinue subscriptions for those who do decide to redistribute the newsgroups against your wishes? That is, you do ASK people to cooperate, or do you effectively put a gun to their head and say "you will NOT do this under penalty of having your feed shot in the head...." >This is in the intention of "The more participate, the >cheaper it will be for the individual site". Our recent cuts in >tariffs and costs for international mail and news proves that >this is the way to continue. It proves nothing. A free(er) market may have cut costs more by now than you have. Absent a full public accounting of your unido income and direct expenses there is no way to tell. >Nevertheless there had been the idea around since last year to get >indepedant of the university and form a non-profit organization >like UUnet or the Danish backbone in the long run. Which might be a good idea. > >Domain .de open for Non-Eunet sites? > >Yes. The international top-level domain .de is also open for >Non-EUnet sites. As always, a registration is needed to have >someone at hand for charging any costs which may easily occur >through transatlantic data. The sites only have to be >a member of one of the official networks in our country. (Note that >this is a rule laid on the Europeans by the American >authorities, it's not our idea). That means applying the X.400 >network DFN (which you may well find under dbp.de), German >EARN (which probably will not show any .de-address until >migration to X.400), the small German CSnet, or EUnet. (It's a rule laid on you by the American authorities?) Which authority(s) are involved here? Name 'em. From my understanding you only need a MX record to have a valid domain connection if you are passing email via uucp. That is, if you would agree, someone could register as an authority an "MX" record for "free.de"; hosts would be named things like "box.free.de"; the MX would point to the appropriate place for "free.de" sites. The mail would never touch your machine. Why would anyone need anything other than the physical connectivity to do something like this? >You think there has to be a trap here? Sure: Unido only >registers (paying) EUnet participants. We don't want to give >any active service to a Non-EUnet site from Germany, as this would >suck of energy and money for EUnet members who are participating >in the costs. Right. Unido only allows people to use the ".de" if they pay unido. I knew there was a catch somewhere. > >Blacklisting of Non-EUnet sites? > >This certainly is a black chapter. There is no blacklisting of >Non-EUnet-sites here at this time. But you may have heard the story >about those Italian subnet-sites who had used a stolen NUI for >their data transfer with US. In affect these have not been authorized >anymore to send their mail via Unido. Ok, what if someone in Germany, not registered with unido, sends one of the unido-listed sites email. It goes to the US (for example), and then back via MCVAX to unido. Do you bounce it? Yes or no answer required; no ifs or buts. If the answer is YES, you do bounce it, then you ARE blacklisting sites. If the answer is NO, then you are not. The same holds true if a unido-listed site sends mail to one of the "other" sites. If you prevent the unido-listed site from emailing to the non-listed site, you are blacklisting the site(s) involved outside of your clique. >Instead the demand of individuals should better be served in a >decentralised and cheaper way for the EUnet users: >Via secondary-feeders, public bulletin boards >and the unformal way the subnet is developing. Everything under >condition that these participate for a fair price in the overall >costs for EUnet! There had been a common agreement with the >subnet people about feasible contributions for this: But why should they pay you if they do not use your resources? These people are using their own connections to the US, and only ask that you not interrupt their mail traffic to and from your "blessed" sites. Email to and from these is no different than mail going to and from the USA. Why the complaint? >I know that I may still not answering all of your questions. >Please *accept* that conditions in Europe are different from US, >for good reasons causing a different network from Usenet! But are they? The clamoring for a different organization than you are providing shows that the people who want to use the net are dissatisfied with your organization. That they want change. That they are willing to PAY for that change. They aren't willing to pour money into what they perceive as a black hole with no accountability. For Unido to decide that traffic is "persona non grata" just because mail comes from a different route (ie: via the US) is equivalent to everyone in the US saying "Screw Unido, we will bounce all mail passing through unido -- and cut off Germany." -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, !ddsw1!karl) Public Access Data Line: [+1 312 566-8911], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price"