Path: utzoo!utgpu!watmath!att!chinet!patrick
From: patrick@chinet.chi.il.us (Patrick A. Townson)
Newsgroups: news.misc
Subject: Re: In Moderation
Message-ID: <8888@chinet.chi.il.us>
Date: 7 Jul 89 05:39:45 GMT
References: <8831@chinet.chi.il.us> <3300@epimass.EPI.COM> <197600001@inmet> <14403@bfmny0.UUCP> <3749@viscous.sco.COM> <24A91A67.28396@ateng.com> <3579@looking.on.ca> <1147@intercon.UUCP> <8853@chinet.chi.il.us> <485@logicon.arpa> <8863@chinet.chi.il.us> <487@logico
Reply-To: patrick@chinet.chi.il.us (Patrick A. Townson)
Organization: Chinet - Public Access Unix
Lines: 122

In article <487@logicon.arpa> Makey@LOGICON.ARPA (Jeff Makey) writes:

>So?  TELECOM Digest subscribers only get what *you* want them to see.

Completely false! TELECOM Digest subscribers get every letter I get unless
the person writing says it is not for publication. Exceptions are those
items which promote theft of phone service (known as phreaking) and give
bogus ID billing codes to use, etc. I won't subject all the sites which
carry the group to possible legal problems because of that kind of crap.

Another exception: something really not suited for telecom at all and
better placed in comp.dcom.modems, etc.

But your premise is totally wrong. Readers get it all. If you dispute
that, ask them! Plenty of stuff flaming *me, as moderator* has appeared
there. I don't play favorites.

>An important difference is that any IMN subscriber can always get an
>unfiltered news feed if they wish.  To the best of my knowledge, there
>is no way for Digest subscribers to read the raw stream of submitted
>articles.

I just told you they get everything that has anything to do with telecom,
including news on phreaks, but with technical specifics of phreaking
omitted.

>You said it, so you're probably right.  Letting *you* do the editing
>would be a bad idea.  What I fail to understand is why you think you
>know what is good or bad for *me*.  If I want to let someone else
>select news articles for me, and even pay them to do it, it's none of
>your business.

No it isn't. And if *you tell me* to deliver your copy of the Digest each
day in care of some third person, I will gladly do so. As long as you
write and ask for a subscription, and ask that *your copy* be given to
someone, I see no problem. But I won't deliver it to a third person for his 
commercial use without some actual subscriber requesting it.

For example: I send a few copies to people on MCI Mail. They ask me to
send them there, knowing that they have to pay to read it. It is their
choice. But if MCI Mail said "give us a copy of the Digest to distribute
to anyone who wants to pay us for having it in his mailbox here" then I
would say no.

>>the point is, it is not you, taking your personal copy of the Digest
>>and editing it for your convenience.
>
>The point is, I don't *want* to do the editing myself.  If I wanted to
>read an unedited TELECOM Digest I would simply subscribe to it (or
>comp.dcom.telecom) directly.
>
>>It is someone else doing the editing, of work that does not belong to them.
>
Again, see above. You tell me you want a copy; I will give you a copy. Give
it to whoever you want to edit it as you like it. I deliver personal copies
of the digest for free. I don't deliver it to re-sellers.

>Once again, so what?  You edit TELECOM Digest submissions that do not
>belong to you.

Of course I do! What do you think a moderator is supposed to do? But again,
see above. It all gets printed. I coordinate what comes in, correct some
technical errors, see to it that duplicate copies of messages do not get
printed, etc. And the people send me things with their full knowledge and
consent to have it edited for the digest. 

>I don't want to read *your* idea of what I should read.  I want to
>read *my* idea of what I should read.  It is my decision -- not yours
>-- whether or not IMN satisfies my needs.

Then you should participate in unmoderated groups.I don't care whether
you read the Digest or not. And yes, to repeat myself, it is your decision
on using IMN. So, if you do decide to condescend to me some day and
subscribe to the Digest, I will send you a copy. You forward it to IMN
and ask him to sort it all out before you look at it, if that is what you
want. 

Send your personal copy of the Digest to anyone you like, to do *almost
anything* they like with it. It is your property when it leaves me, except
I strongly urge you or the persons of your choice not to resell it in
whole or in part.

>Have you ever eaten a bowl of corn flakes?  It's little more than
>processed corn, repackaged and sold at a profit.  Here you are telling
>me that I should buy raw corn every morning and do
>whatever-it-is-you-do-to-make-corn-flakes just so I can eat breakfast.
>Frankly, I'd much rather *pay* the Kellog company to give it to me in
>a box, but no.  You, the farmer, have put weeks of hard work into
>growing that corn, and you'll be damned if you'll let anyone eat it
>unless they husk the ears themselves.

You have the wrong analogy here. The understanding between the farmer and
the Kellog people is that he will sell them his raw corn and they will do
the necessary work. I have no such understanding with Geoff Goodfellow,
in which I deliver raw material to him for packaging and resale. The farmer
is paid for his product and has no furher claim as to what happens to it
unless that claim is stated in some contract with the cereal people. I
have no such contract with anyone.

>Say whatever you want, but if you truly valued the intellectual effort
>you put into the TELECOM Digest then *you* would be charging for it.
>Your actions belie your words.

But in the proper media, maybe I do charge for it. It is not the value
of my intellectual efforts, or what I think of them. It is the context in
which the transaction is occuring.

I have been paid for my articles which have appeared in various magazines
and newspapers. I am paid for talking on the radio for half an hour twice
a week on subjects of my choice relating to Chicago history. 

But I am not paid for things I write on Usenet. Why not? Is it because as
you say, I don't value my intellectual efforts? Or is it because Usenet is
not the place to charge for things?

Let me know whenever you want a subscription to the Digest. I will send your
copy daily, and you may pass it along to Mr. Goodfellow or any other person
of your choice for editing. 
-- 
Patrick Townson 
  patrick@chinet.chi.il.us / ptownson@bu-cs.bu.edu / US Mail: 60690-1570 
  FIDO: 115/743 / AT&T Mail: 529-6378 (!ptownson) /  MCI Mail: 222-4956