Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!usc!orion.cf.uci.edu!uci-ics!tittle
From: ur-valhalla!wengler@hollerith.ee.rochester.EDU (Mikey)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: sex/gender
Message-ID: <2308@valhalla.ee.rochester.edu>
Date: 13 Jul 89 00:28:19 GMT
References: <8907112038.AA14297@cattell.psych.upenn.edu> <12605@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU>
Sender: news@paris.ics.uci.edu
Reply-To: Mikey <wengler@ee.rochester.EDU>
Organization: Ralph's Home for Wayward Scientists
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Approved: tittle@ics.uci.edu

Gretchen has posted one of the single most coherent, rational,
sensible, and correct articles that I have ever seen.  That is to say, I
agree with it.

In particular, she expresses one desire which I hold close to my heart:
>>We may not all agree on what these prescriptions [of feminism] should be, 
>>but I'd
>>rather have us arguing over that than trying to re-describe the world
>>in a way that it isn't...

Travis points out two reasons that description is an essential concern
of feminism.  First, anyone proposing political change must always say
"Since this is true, we must do that."  The this that is true is a
description, and the that that we must do follows in some emotionally
loaded way from the way the this was stated.  ie since women are
oppressed we must change society.

Second of Travis' points: when A says that something is true, B often
hears that something must be done about it, and will usually hear just
what it is that should be done as well.  Say "Its wrong to burn the
flag" and many people will hear "we should send people to jail that do
so."  Say that "Women on average seem a bit more interested in taking
care of babies than men do" and people hear "we should have a society
in which women are _expected_ to care for children and are blocked
from other things."

It is an unfortunate thing that people really do operate this way.  I
would call it an intellectual immaturity.  It without a doubt stands
in the way of the pursuit of knowledge.

Gretchen has clearly matured past this pitfall, and sees how this
inference of prescription from description can be harmful.  Here it
goes: "I am a man and I know most men want to sleep with women (and i
infer therefore that all men should want to sleep with women).  So,
since I don't want to sleep with women I am bad.  So to liberate
myself I must deny the fact that most men want to sleep with women, so
that I can lose the prescriptive inference that I should want to sleep
with women."

I hope you all see a problem with that example.  Most men really do
prefer women, so if I tie my liberation intellectually to the idea
that it is not the case that most men want to sleep with women, people
will see the fallacy, and not pay credence to my desire for
liberation.

Gretchen realizes that even if 98.8% of all women really want to marry
rich doctors and stay at home painting their fingernails and their
children, THAT SHE CAN STILL DO SOMETHING ELSE, and laws and societal
expectations shouldn't stand in her way.

My right to live my life as I want is not dependant on how most men or
most women or most whatevers choose to live theirs.  That is a
prescription which requires no detailed description of what others are
doing.

Mikey

My situation is hopeless,		wengler@ee.rochester.edu
but not serious.			weng@uordbv  (bitnet)
					ur-valhalla!wengler