Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: bnr-fos!bnr-public!davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Predestination and judgement Message-ID: Date: 13 Jul 89 06:59:57 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada Lines: 159 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article hedrick@geneva.rutgers.edu writes: >judgement. I've just taken a glance through most of the NT. I'm sure One of the mistakes that we all make at one time or another is to fail to treat the most authoritative thing we have, i.e. the very Word of God Himself, with the greatest amount of respect which we can find within ourselves to render. No statement of what God has said in the Scriptures should ever be based simply on something as small as a glance. This can lead to misconceptions that we would not tolerate if others were to take the same approach when reading material which we ourselves have written. We must compare Scripture with Scripture until we are sure that we are going to declare something that is not contradicted by any verse in the entire Bible. 1 Corinthians 2:13 instructs us "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.". >really rather straightforward: God has called us to a life of loving >obedience. Those who do are saved. Those who don't aren't. This may be true, however, without God intervening in our lives none of us would ever do so. His analysis of us can be found in Romans 3:10-18 where He says "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat {is} an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps {is} under their lips: Whose mouth {is} full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet {are} swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery {are} in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.". >Lk 20:27-40 sounds like it is implying that only those who are saved >are resurrected. ... Jesus tells us in John 5:28-29 "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.". The passage in Luke that you refer to is speaking of the "resurrection of life". >there are signs of it in Peter as well. Paul has his share of the >standard preaching about judgement. There are several lists of bad >actions, with statements that people who do them will never be saved. Unless, of course, one who has done any of them has been saved and God no longer sees those sins as they have been washed away by the blood of Christ. Anyone who analyzes himself with total honesty will find traces of elements of any of those lists in his own life. >... But in 11:25 he tells us the >secret that once this happens, all the Jews will be saved. This verse in no way tells us that all the Jews will be saved after the Gentiles have been saved. Romans 11:25-26 says "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:". Note that verse 26 does not say "and THEN all Israel shall be saved"; it says "and SO all Israel shall be saved". If one were to take the liberty of expanding the language a bit it would read "and in this manner all Israel shall be saved". This leaves us with what would appear to be a bit of a contradiction, i.e. all Israel will become saved by keeping them blinded to the truth. We must realize, therefore, that the phrase "all Israel" cannot be referring to national Israel. This is confirmed in Romans 9:6 where we are told "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they {are} not all Israel, which are of Israel:". Romans 2:28-29 tells us "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither {is that} circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he {is} a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision {is that} of the heart, in the spirit, {and} not in the letter; whose praise {is} not of men, but of God.". Galatians 3:9 tells us "So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.". Galatians 6:16 says "And as many as walk according to this rule, peace {be} on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.". A common misconception is that God is referring to the earthly nation of Israel whenever He says Israel, when, in fact, He is referring to His Spiritual Kingdom of those whom He has saved. This is because the nation of Israel is something that we can "see", i.e, it is tangible. whereas the Kingdom of God is intangible. He did not establish earthly Israel and then name His Kingdom after it; He, rather, set out to establish His Heavenly Kingdom of Israel and named the earthly nation whom He used as a figure of it after it. >... it is >attractive to think of this as suggesting that his analysis of Jews >and Gentiles is simply a special case of the way God works as a whole. >In order to make it clear that salvation comes entirely from his >grace, God first hardens and judges everyone, and then he saves them. Wouldn't it be nice if this were really the truth. Be careful never to fall into the trap of being tempted to believe something merely because it is attractive. This is Satan's method of luring people into sin. Paul himself was well aware that what he was telling us was extremely unpleasant. He tells us in Galatians 1:10 "For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.". >Thus double predestination does not separate people into two groups, >but applies to every individual. Everyone is both Esau and Jacob. >First they are convicted of their sin, in order that they can >appreciate that their salvation comes entirely from Christ. (This is >Karl Barth's interpretation of Rom., by the way, and is also ably >defended by C.K.Barrett in his commentary on Romans.) What an absolute mockery this attempt at an explanation makes of God's righteousness! With a Gospel that teaches that God will really save each and every person who has ever lived, He has absolutely no grounds on which to command us to obey Him. >There are several passages in other letters that suggest that this >plan applies to all of mankind. The clearest in I Cor 15:20 ff. I suspect you are referring to 1 Corinthians 15:22 which says "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.". Note the use of the word "all" in Luke 2:1 which says "And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.". Caesar did not in fact tax the whole world, yet that is exactly what the Scriptures say. God more often than not uses the word "all" without explicitly qualifying exactly what He means "all" of. We must search the rest of the Scriptures to resolve the reference. Using parenthesized qualifications to the Scriptures I shall illustrate what I believe God is really telling us in 1 Corinthians 15:22. "For as in Adam all (who are in Adam) die, even so in Christ shall all (who are in Christ) be made alive.". We must be extremely careful when we say that a given Scripture is the clearest one that we can find on a given topic. >Some people believe that Christ's rule will be complete even if some >people end up in hell suffering their just desserts. But I think Paul >has in mind a more complete victory. There are also hints of a similar >concept in I Pet 3:18-4:6. This talks about what the Apostle's Creed >calls Christ's descent into Hell. I Pet says that Christ preached to >those who were in Hell because they had rejected God. They were given >in effect a second chance. I Pet 3 mentions specifically the people >who were alive at the time of Noah and rejected God then. I Pet 4 may >be interpreted more widely. 1 Peter 3:18-20 says "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.". This Scripture indicates that the saving of those eight people took place at the time of the flood. Even the writers of the apostle's creed knew that Christ's descention into hell took place at the crucifiction. The term "prison" can, therefore, not refer to hell itself. The Scriptures do, however, describe the unsaved as being in Satan's prison house. This Scripture is telling us that even back in Noah's day, i.e. before the crucifiction, people were saved in the same manner as they are now; they are taught by the Holy Spirit. One final comment: Any doctrine that hints that a person has a chance to get out of hell after he has been put into it is in grave violation with the Word of God. Luke 16:26 tells us (hence refers to heaven and thence refers to hell) "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that {would come} from thence.". Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 856 Grenon Avenue Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2B 6G3