Path: utzoo!attcan!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: fibercom!lab@uunet.uu.net (Lance Beckner) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: None should perish (was Re: Williamson's Regulative Principle) Message-ID: Date: 15 Jul 89 08:07:05 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: FiberCom, Inc., Roanoke, VA Lines: 121 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , bnr-fos!bnr-public!davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) writes: > He is not punishing > anyone because he couldn't figure out what salvation is; He is > punishing him for his sinful nature. I agree with this. But you go further and say that He wants to save some and He does not want to save others. I can not agree with that. > The truth of the whole matter is > that no single one of us hopelessly sinful people deserve even the > most minute amount of His grace. I agree 100%. That fact that any of us are saved is evidence of His mercy. My argument is that the mercy is available to all. > Because He took it upon Himself to endure the equivalent of eternal > damnation for all those who would believe on Him, He has clearly ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > reserved the right to decide exactly who it is that He suffered for. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Yes He has. And He has decided that He died for the world. "And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (1 John 2:2) Does John 3:16 say, "For God so loved the world..." or, "For God so loved the elect..." ??? > You quoted 2 Peter 3:9 which says "The Lord is not slack concerning > his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to > us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come > to repentance.". You highlighted the words ANY and ALL. I suggest that > you have placed the wrong interpretation on this verse. Matthew 19:26 > tells us "But Jesus beheld {them}, and said unto them, With men this > is impossible; but with God all things are possible.". Matthew 7:13-14 > tells us "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide {is} the gate, and > broad {is} the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be > which go in thereat: Because strait {is} the gate, and narrow {is} the > way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.". If ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Yes there are few that find it. But the invitation is open to all. > nothing is too difficult for God to do, and if He really meant that He > is not willing that any single person should perish and that each and > every one of us would be saved, then why will hell be so heavily > populated? If this is what He really meant, and since He cannot lie, > He would merely force everyone to believe in Him. The only way to make > the Scripture you quoted agree with the rest of the Bible is to > realize that the terms ANY and ALL actually refer only to those whom > He has chosen. He is letting this world continue to exist, sinful as > it is, because He is not willing that any (whose names are written in > the book of life) should perish but that all (those whom He has > chosen) can become born so that He can save them to share eternity > with Him. If any of us ever thought for a moment that failure to > figure out what salvation is would be a valid complaint against God > then he would be attempting to gain salvation by a work. You accuse me of a contradiction by comparing my use of 2 Peter 3:9 with your use of Matt. 19:26. And yet, it would appear that there is a contra- diction in your paragraph above. You say that according to Matt. 19:26, "...with God all things are possible." and yet you go on to say that God can not lie (Num.23:19, 1 Sam. 15:29, Titus 1:2). On the surface, this would appear to be a contradiction. God can do anything, God can not lie. Obviously we need to reconcile these passages. As we agree, God's word does not contradict itself. I think the best way to understand this, is to say that God can do anything within His character. Lying is not one of God's attributes. That is why He can not lie. In the same manner, it is not part of God's character to allow those that have rejected Him and His Son into His presence. God is a Holy God. To come into His presence, we need to be either A) Perfect or B) Covered with Christ's perfection. Obviously, (A) is out of the question. (B) is available to all, but many will refuse it. You state that if it were *truly* God's will that *all* should come to know Him, then all would come to know Him. This is not a bad argument, but it implies that God's will is *always* done. I read the Bible, and this is just not true. Was it God's will that Adam and Eve disobey? Was it God's will that the human race be tainted with sin? Was it God's will that Cain kill Abel? Was it God's will that Israel would turn their back on the LORD over and over again to worship false gods? Is it God's will that I, a child of God, sin? The answer to all of these questions is a resounding "NO". In the same manner we can ask, "Is it God's will that any should perish?" No, it is not His will that any should perish. But those that refuse His grace will perish. And He won't force anyone to be saved. He doesn't want robots serving Him because they have to. He wants His children serving Him because they want to. And the latter also gives Him more glory. I'll end with a quote from H. A. Ironside's book _In_The_Heavenlies_. There is no such thing taught in the Word of God as predestination to eternal damnation. If men are lost, they are lost because they do not come to Christ. When men do come to Christ, they learn the wonderful secret that God has foreknown it from all eternity, and that He had settled it before the world came into existence that they were to share the glory of His Son throughout endless ages. D. L. Moody used to say in his quaint way, when people talked about the subject of election, "The whosoever wills are the elect, and the whosoever won'ts are the non-elect." And so you can settle it for yourself whether you will be among the elect of God or not.[1] [1] H. A. Ironside, _In_The_Heavenlies_, Loizeaux Brothers, Inc. 1973 God bless you. Lance -- Lance A. Beckner INTERNET: lab@fibercom.com FiberCom, Inc. UUCP: ...!uunet!fibercom!lab P.O. Box 11966 FAX: (703) 342-5961 Roanoke, VA 24022-1966 PHONE: (703) 342-6700