Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!ucsd!ucbvax!agate!apple!bloom-beacon!daemon
From: travis@douglass.cs.columbia.edu (Travis Lee Winfrey)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: understanding from the outside
Message-ID: <12951@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU>
Date: 23 Jul 89 20:48:15 GMT
References: <12870@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <15081@duke.cs.duke.edu>
Sender: ambar@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: travis@douglass.cs.columbia.edu (Travis Lee Winfrey)
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 71
Approved: ambar@bloom-beacon.mit.edu

In article <15081@duke.cs.duke.edu> gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel Gazit) writes:
>In article <12870@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> travis@douglass.cs.columbia.edu (Travis Lee Winfrey) writes:
>
> >after all, it seems that a large number of positions can be
> >predetermined by simply noting whose ox gets gored.  White men -- no
> >different than anyone else -- will vigorously attack any perceived
> >assaults on them.
>
>That's the way we are.  If you don't like it, you can look for another forum.

That's just my point: there is no other forum.  No matter what the name
of the group, the various white technocrats invade and offer their
opinions.  As with the quotation I offered -- how a white researcher in
a black environment mimics oppression by "defining" it when it occurs --
it's hard to say how well men and women can communicate in such a
lopsided forum of nearly all men.

>Look how many options women have:
>
>1) Soc.women.
>2) Comp.society.women (moderated by a feminist woman).
>3) Soc.feminism (moderated by four women, three of them are feminists).
>4) Feminist mailing list (no anti-feminist articles).
>5) Lesbian & bisexual women mailing list.
>6) "Informal" (not mentioned in newusers net) women only mailing list.

With the exception of sappho, the lesbian and bisexual women's space,
all of the above result directly from the failure of soc.women.  (Under
this view, you omitted soc.men and talk.rape, also fallouts from failed,
flaming "discussions" on soc.women.)  Gender issues are not now, and
never have been, discussed reasonably and fairly on the net.  (The same
may be said of racial issues, as the misguided, absolutist discussion on
Alice Walker shows.)  I'm questioning now if gender issues ever can be
discussed fairly in this type of male-dominated forum.

By reasonably and fairly, I don't mean that people should agree with me
(although of course they should).  I mean that they should discuss an
issue as if there were more than one viewpoint, e.g., to try to
understand Alice Walker's point of view without immediately calling her
racist or sexist, thereby dismissing her viewpoint without further
thought.  Alternatively, many of the postings about rape from men seemed
to begin and end with their insistence that they were not to blame for
it, thereby dismissing it as a problem.  Rapists were some other sort of
man -- obviously some type who never posted to Usenet.

I could have phrased all this less provocatively, but I'm irked that
these alternative groups are so quiet, if not boring.  It's not as if
feminists, whatever they are, all agree with each other.

>If none of them is good enough for them then they (and you) are free to
>open another mailing list or try to open another newsgroup.

This problem won't be solved by forming another newsgroup.  It will be
solved if and only if people realize that the viewpoint most
predominantly expressed on Usenet is that of middle-class, white,
technically-trained males, and that's simply not the only view around.
It's not a question of liberal or conservative politics, of feminist or
anti-feminist politics, it's a question of trying to realize one's
inherently limited perspective and experiences.

>To publish "call for vote" for soc.feminism, mention that anti-feminist
>articles by men will be allowed, and afterward cry loud why men publish
>anti-feminist articles is not honest.

Yes, it was indeed dishonest of me to propose soc.feminism, and then to
cast all the votes for it.  I would now like to apologize to everyone,
and also, taking responsibility for everyone, accept my apology.

t

Arpa:	travis@cs.columbia.edu	Usenet: rutgers!columbia!travis