Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!bloom-beacon!daemon
From: geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: sex/gender
Message-ID: <3118@cadre.dsl.PITTSBURGH.EDU>
Date: 23 Jul 89 23:02:21 GMT
References: <8907071844.AA10158@cattell.psych.upenn.edu> <10546@polya.Stanford.EDU> <12869@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> <10781@polya.Stanford.EDU>
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Reply-To: geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu (Gordon E. Banks)
Organization: Decision Systems Lab., Univ. of Pittsburgh, PA.
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In article <10781@polya.Stanford.EDU> elroy!ames!polya.stanford.edu!holstege (Mary Holstege) writes:

>>If the females choose to compete on male terms, and cultivate male
>>characteristics, it will certainly be a difficult, if not insurmountable, 
>>struggle.

>Of course, here you contradict all your fine words above and assert something
>for which there is no proof, that in fact women cannot hope to compete with
>men on `male terms', which in this context one is invited to read as
>`aggressiveness'. 

We know at least one reason that males behave more aggressively:
testosterone.  In experiments with animals, females can be made as
aggressive as males by administration of testosterone, and the males can
be made even more aggressive than they naturally are by giving them
extra testosterone.  Of course, such experiments in children would be
unethical, but unfortunately, some persons insist on performing such
studies on themselves, although not with an eye to making themselves
more aggressive.  I'm talking about athletes, and especially body
builders.  Female body builders have found that anabolic steroids (male
sex hormone analogues) make them more aggressive as well as putting
muscle (and hair) on their bodies.  Male athletes have found that
excessive amounts of these hormones can make them so aggressive that
minor traffic incidents, or bumping in crowds can easily lead to
fisticuffs.  In utero testosterone is responsible for the male phenotype
(XY males in the absence of testosterone are phenotypic females).  So to
make a long story short, I do believe that females can compete on male
terms (aggressiveness, etc.) IF THEY REALLY WANT TO.  They can take
assertiveness training, lift weights, do martial arts training, and
become more masculine than males.  BUT WHY SHOULD THEY HAVE TO?  Perhaps
when more females reach the upper eschelons aggressiveness won't be
given so much weight in consideration for hiring and advancement.  I
really think most females do not want to become like males and will not
choose to do so, nor to compete on that basis.  Of course that's just my
opinion.

If you are interested in pursuing this line, I can post my opinion about
why there are so few women in surgery (and it isn't just overt
discrimination in selection of trainees, either).  It is too long to
append to this posting, however.
 
I'll also make another posting dealing with your criticism of
lateralization studies tomorrow.