Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: fibercom!lab@uunet.uu.net (Lance Beckner) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: None should perish (was Re: Williamson's Regulative Principle) Message-ID: Date: 21 Jul 89 07:43:48 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: FiberCom, Inc., Roanoke, Virginia Lines: 203 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu [In a previous article, Lance Beckner asked whether it was God's will that Adam and Eve disobey, the human race be tained with sin, Cain kill Abel, Israel would turn their back on the LORD over and over, worship false gods, and finally that we, children of God, sin. He answered a resounding "NO". bnr-fos!bnr-public!davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke), on the other hand, answered yes: Yes, I believe that God's will is always done. --clh] Then why do we need to pray for His will to be done on earth as it is in heaven? :-) Okay, for the sake of discussion, let's clarify things. When I was speaking of God's will, I was speaking of things that God DESIRES to happen. If I'm not mistaken, you are speaking of things that He ALLOWS to happen. Both are correct views and can be categorized as His "Divine Will" and His "Permissive Will". Obviously, God ALLOWS a lot to happen. As a matter of fact, I would go so far as to say that NOTHING happens that God does not allow. I am sure that you would agree with me on that. My original argument was from 2 Peter 3:9 where it says that the Lord is "...not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." I read this as the Lord is not DESIRING that any should perish, but DESIRING that all should come to repentance. Obviously He is ALLOWING many to perish. You say that if He were DESIRING that none should perish, than He wouldn't ALLOW any to perish. And I say that there are a lot of things that He does not DESIRE and yet He still ALLOWS. So I ask again: Was it God's DESIRE that Adam and Eve disobey? Was it God's DESIRE that the human race be tainted with sin? Was it God's DESIRE that Cain kill Abel? Was it God's DESIRE that Israel would turn their back on the LORD over and over again to worship false gods? Is it God's DESIRE that I, a child of God, sin? The answer to all of these questions is a resounding "NO". Now lets take a look at your arguments: > Let's take perhaps the simplest of your questions first. It was most > definitely God's will that Israel reject Him over and over again. If > they had not finally rejected Him altogether then Jesus would never > have been crucified and salvation would not have been able to come to > anyone. Acts 2:23 tells us "Him, being delivered by the determinate > counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands > have crucified and slain:". I believe that this speaks of God's FOREKNOWLEDGE of Israel's rejection. not His DESIRE for their rejection. Can you give me any biblical support for the theory that God DESIRED for Israel to worship and serve non- existent gods? > You ask if it is God's will that those whom He has saved still sin > while in this phase of their lives. Again, I believe that the answer is > yes. He teaches that we have both a body and a soul, and that it is Lets remember the question here: Is it God's DESIRE that I, a child of God, sin? "Be angry, and do not sin": do not let the sun go down on your wrath" Ephesians 4:26 (NKJV) And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:30 (NKJV) My little children, these thing I write to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 1 John 2:1 (NKJV) It is not God's DESIRE that we sin. However, He does ALLOW us to sin. > He has also done > things this way so that, while amongst the unsaved, we will be > restrained from falling into the temptation of letting our perfection > get to our heads, i.e. constantly acting like we are better than they > are. I'm sorry, but this is a very bad argument. You are implying that God wants us to sin so that we won't develop the sin of pride. In other words, God wants us to sin so that we may be kept from sin. That doesn't make any sense. > I believe that a lot of confusion arises because there is a tendancy to > confuse the will of God with respect to how He commands us to live with > the will of God with respect to those sins which He allows to occur. And this is my point. What God DESIRES versus what God ALLOWS. So again, I say that God DESIRES everyone to be saved. However, many will reject His love and perish as a result. He ALLOWS that to happen. He does not DESIRE it to happen. > mercy, etc. We must remember that God actually hates the people who ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > sin. There is a common belief that God hates the sin yet loves the ^^^^ If what you are saying were true, then God hates me (because I *DO* sin). He also hates you and every other person on this planet according to your statement above. For ALL have sinned (Romans 3:23). Friend, If God hates all people that sin, then no one has a chance! But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8 (NKJV) I don't have enough spare DAYS to type in all of the Bible verses that tell us that God loved us even while we were sinners. > The Scriptures teach that all those whom God loves will be saved. > Romans 8:38-39 tells us "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor > life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, > nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, > shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ > Jesus our Lord.". In case you didn't know, Paul is writing to Christians here. > We know, therefore, that the ones who shall not be > saved are the ones whom God has not chosen to love. We know that He No, we don't "know" that. The Bible says that "God so loved the world" NOT that "God so loved the elect (or the chosen or whatever)" > hated Esau. We know that He must have hated most of the pharisees > because we are told that they committed the one sin that shall never be > forgiven, i.e. blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, by claiming that Jesus got > His power from Satan. We know that Judas Iscariot is not saved. These > few real examples tell us that in no way will each and every single > person be saved; in so doing, they also tell us that there are most I never said that each and every person will be saved. I only said that it is God's DESIRE that everyone be saved. Please don't confuse my views with the views of others. > definitely those whom God hates. When John 3:16 tells us that God so > loved the world we must be careful to make sure that we do not read > into this that God so loved all the people in the world. There is So according to you we have: "For God so loved SOME people, that He sent His only begotten Son, that those whom God CHOSE to believe in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life." I'm sorry, but none of my translations say anything close to that. I don't buy it. > abundant evidence that He loves His creation, but there is ample > evidence that He does not love all of its members. In response to all > the preaching by the apostles on and after Penticost we are told that > God did not bring all the hearers to salvation. The last half of Acts That's right. He didn't bring the ones that rejected the Gospel to salvation. > 2:47 tells us "the Lord added to the church daily such as should be > saved.". Those that believed should be saved. Those that didn't, shouldn't. The invitation went out to all. But not all responded. Dave, let me close by saying that I think we are at an impasse here. I'm sure that you will respond to this article, but unless you have something new for me to consider, I probably won't respond. I don't see any sense in us throwing scripture at each other over this subject any longer. (I'm sure the rest of the group would agree.) I don't expect to change your mind, and I KNOW that you won't change mine. It has been fun and challenging. I hope that there are no hard feelings. I know that there are none on my part. In Christian Friendship, Lance -- Lance Beckner | INTERNET: lab@fibercom.com | UUCP: ...!uunet!fibercom!lab ---------------------------- 2 Timothy 2:15 ----------------------------- "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." [The question is whether there is any difference between allowing and willing when you are dealing with the creator. God set up the universe. He knew what the results were going to be. Presumably had he wanted them to be otherwise, he would have set it up otherwise. Furthermore, when you say that he simply allows many of the things that happen, you remove a factor that many Christians consider important: that we can consider everything that happens around us as a gift from God. Not all of them pleasant perhaps, but all intended for our good. If he isn't responsible for them all, this causes a problem. Let me propose an alternative, which may combine the emphases of both positions described above. That is what I think Paul was trying to say in Romans. God is responsible for the fact that everyone sins. But despite how it may appear, his intention in this is merciful. He wants to prevent any possibility that we might look to ourselves for salvation, by making it clear to us what happens when we are left to ourselves. This is the implication I draw from Rom 11, culminating in 11:32. I am not necessarily asking you to accept my interpretation that everyone will eventually be saved. I realize that this is controversial. But I think one way or the other we have to come up with an explanation that takes account one way or another for both strands of Christian experience: God's ultimate responsibility for everything, and his intent to save us. I can't help thinking that what we see above is an opposition between two extremes, and that the real explanation must somehow take account of both emphases. --clh]