Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: bnr-fos!bnr-public!davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: None should perish (was Re: Williamson's Regulative Principle) Message-ID: Date: 21 Jul 89 07:57:27 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada Lines: 145 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article bnr-fos!bnr-public!davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (our moderator) responds: >[I'm sort of surprised to see some of these comments. The traditional >view by those who believe in predestination is that the corruption of >sin extends to body and soul equally. Indeed spiritual sins such as >pride are probably more serious than those caused by bodily appetites. I am not concerned that much with what various proponents or opponents of a given doctrinal position have to say. I am far more concerned with exactly what the Scriptures, i.e. God Himself, has to say. There is a great danger in hanging onto a particular doctrinal position just because it would appear that there is a majority vote for its legitimacy. Since the Scriptures contain truths which are only revealed in the fulness of time, we can be assured that restudying them will tend to yield truths that were not eligible for revelation prior to now. The Scriptures most definitely teach that God's intentions are completely eternally merciful to those whom He has chosen. Romans 8:28 tells us "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to {his} purpose.". The problem is that there is a popular misconception that God's intention is to be merciful to those whom He has not chosen as well. This is a belief that Satan would love to have all of us believe because it diminishes from what we would otherwise understand the wrath of God to be. He set a precedent for this kind of deception in the garden of Eden when he told Eve that she would not surely die if she were to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I suggest that we rely on the Scriptures, and not on wishful thinking, when attempting to determine what God's intentions are for those whom He has not chosen. Let us recall the parable of the wheat and the tares which gives us insight into this question. Matthew 13:24-30 tells us "Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.". Jesus decides to give us an explanation of this parable so that we can unambiguously know what its message is. He explains in Matthew 13:37-43 "He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked {one}; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.". Note that Jesus refers to the good seed as the "children of the kingdom", i.e. the children of God, whereas He refers to the tares as the "children of the wicked one", i.e. the children of Satan. If He really means this, and there is no reason to assume that He does not mean it, then we must assume that since God will treat His children as though they were joint heirs with His only begotten Son, He will treat those whom He considers to be children of Satan as though they were "joint heirs" with Satan. Since He absolutely without a doubt hates Satan and has no merciful intentions whatsoever toward him, we can be sure that He will have those same feelings toward those whom He considers to be the children of Satan. This does still leave us wondering if there really are people whom God considers to be children of Satan. In John 8:43-45 Jesus tells His audience "Why do ye not understand my speech? {even} because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of {your} father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell {you} the truth, ye believe me not.". Using His common metaphore of planting, Jesus gives us further insight in Matthew 15:12-14 where we read "Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.". It may be worth noting that the doctrine of predestination, which is very clearly taught within the Scriptures, cannot possibly make any sense if He has elected every single human being to salvation. It only makes sense if we realize what He has really done. He has permitted an extremely formiddable enemy to rise up against Himself so that He can demonstrate His absolute supremicy and power as He overcomes it. He is, particularly as the end approaches, permitting His enemy to get so strong that it becomes, certainly from our point of view, completely indistinguishable from He Himself. Even with these unbelievable odds, He will still win precisely according to HIs preannounced plan and exactly according to His for-ordained schedule. We must also not lose sight of the other thing which God has done. We must realize that each and every one of us has started out life as a child of Satan, i.e. as an enemy of God. God, on the other hand, has chosen to rescue some of us from the infinitely awful fate which would be the inevitable consequence of us being found guilty before His judgment throne. This decision of love toward some of His enemies had to be a deliberately conscious decision on His part as any of us in a sinful state would be absolutely abominable to Him. He has shown us that true love is not just something that we fall into and perhaps expect something back from; it is, rather, a conscious decision to do our utmost to please someone else without expecting anything in return, even when everything the other one confronts us with is an endless list of attitudes, behaviours, etc. that we can in no way tolerate. Realizing that charity is an old English word for love, He tells us in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 that "Charity suffereth long, {and} is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.". If we husbands and wives, parents and children, etc. would recognize that this is the only way in which true love is to be exercised, a lot of the suffering that we force our families through, if not all of it, would be alleviated. Let us not forget exactly what God did to maintain perfect justice yet enable Himself to rescue us from eternal damnation. He took upon Himself that infinitely awful punishment that each one of us so rightly deserves to suffer for himself. Let us also not forget that each of us would suffer merely for his own sins and it would take forever, yet God, in the person of Jesus, suffered for numerous people the equivalent of an eternity in only three days. Which of us would ever be able to voluntarily submit ourselves to such an incomprehendibly awesome ordeal even for one single person whom we claimed to truly love? We must remember that He made us in His image; we must never attempt to make Him in our image, i.e. we must never try to force Him into a mold that makes Him easier for us to comprehend. We must obey Him, and not He us. Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 856 Grenon Avenue Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2B 6G3