Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: procsy@cbnewsd.att.com (Jeff Sargent) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: thoughts on the recent exchange Message-ID: Date: 21 Jul 89 07:58:53 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories Lines: 158 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu I've been watching the exchange between Dave Mielke, the moderator, et al. and sort of letting a reply slow-cook for a while. I certainly don't intend to respond in detail to hundreds of lines, but I had a few thoughts on salient points. The first is that I find myself wondering if Mielke's emphasis on our being, e.g., "hopelessly sinful people" who ought to be punished, has more a psychological than a Scriptural basis. There are times, still all too frequent, when I feel that way about myself; and when I pray into the feeling to find out why, I usually discover there's some specific thing I'm feeling guilty about. (I call prayer "the ultimate psychotherapy", because, like ordinary therapy, it involves opening yourself up to someone who cares and wants to help you; the difference is that this Therapist already knows your inner thoughts and feelings!) I need to keep learning that my sins are indeed, really, thoroughly, utterly forgiven! So do we all, perhaps. (Of course, alas, they're not all *gone* yet, but God still accepts me "warts and all.") The second point is not necessarily to give a final resolution any more than the moderator did in one of his postings, but to give food for thought and possibly prayer. Jesus certainly did speak of a tight gate and narrow path that leads to life; I can't deny that. On the other hand, Paul, in I Timothy 4:10, speaks of "the living God, who is the Savior of all, and especially of those who believe" -- which, while still recognizing the difference between those who believe and those who don't, suggests that those who don't aren't necessarily 100% out of luck! Combining these two points, let us remember the famous verse (Romans 5:8) that "God showed His love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." This seems to throw Mielke's comments about God's hatred of sinners (not just sin) out of court; for if God hated sinners (a class that includes ourselves), Christ would never have incarnated, let alone suffered crucifixion. Christ spoke of seeking and saving that which was lost; of going after the lost sheep; of a father who kept his eye on the road, spotted his returning wastrel son a long way off, and ran and embraced the kid who had blown half the father's money and still smelled of pig manure. These all carry the suggestion that, though we had gone astray like sheep (Isaiah 53:6) or worse, we were still somehow of value to God, precious to Him, and so He came after us, into the midst of our problems, lostness, degradation, or whatever, to rescue us. J.B. Phillips suggested that word "rescue" as a synonym for the much overused and probably misunderstood "salvation" in his book _Your God Is Too Small_, which I would highly recommend. I would also recommend, particularly to Dave Mielke, Phillips's translation _The New Testament in Modern English_, which, though it does contain a few things that are distinctly British, also contains many fresh translations that give a whole new perspective on many too-familiar verses. Actually I would recommend a more modern translation anyway; the King James has some gorgeous language in it, but much of it is archaic and hard to understand (especially with the number of words that have changed meanings in nearly four centuries); there's no reason not to read and think about God, and talk to Him as well, in the same sort of language you use for other matters. > = Dave Mielke > Jesus has instructed us to enter the Kingdom of God as little children. > I am prepared to believe that He was really referring to babies and not > merely to children who are fairly young. Note the word *enter*. Yes, He said "unless you change and become like little children," [BTW, the preceding verse, Matt 18:2, refers to his calling a child and having him *stand* among them, therefore not a baby] "you will never enter the kingdom of heaven"; yes, I Peter 2:2 says "Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk" -- but goes on "so that by it you may grow up in your salvation". The writer of Hebrews, in 5:11-14, chews out his audience for still being babies and needing someone to give them milk rather than solid food, contrasting them with the mature. And Ephesians 4:11-13 speaks of God's giving all sorts of different people to help the members of the Body "become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." The topic of inerrancy came up a few times in the exchange. Since my chief concern in reading the Scripture and being a Christian at all is in figuring out how to live my life and resolve the problems I have that make living more difficult, I have little interest in being doctrinaire on this or most other topics. The word I prefer to use to describe the Scriptures is etymologically synonymous with "inerrant", but carries quite a different connotation: "unerring". "Inerrant" connotes merely "not wrong", while "unerring" means "invariably right", "right on target" -- which I have found to be true, and which is a far healthier way to think of both the Scriptures and the God they describe. I can't think of any specific example offhand, but I have found more than once that some passage from the Bible was indeed "right on target" for a situation that I was in, and that even the specific choice of words was remarkably precisely applicable to my life. Let that, if anything, be what is meant by "inerrant" -- not the dryness of merely "there are no errors in it"! > = Lance Beckner > In the same manner, it is not part of God's character to allow those that > have rejected Him and His Son into His presence. Or is it the other way around, that it is not naturally part of our character to come into His presence? I for one find all the talk about repentance (which, by the way, means changing not only actions but the inner self that produces those actions; the Greek word translated "repent" means "change the mind"), about being crucified with Christ and having Christ live in me, about walking by faith rather than by sight [a.k.a. flying blind] rather like something out of a horror movie; yet they are utterly necessary for me to reach any solid sanity in this life. (Here we see another piece of my crusade to try to start in this newsgroup some discussion of how living with and in Christ really works when it comes down to the really tough, painful issues.) > = Dave Mielke > The Scriptures teach that hell is the eternal banishment from the > presence of God Perhaps the word is different, but Psalm 139:8b says "If I make my bed in [literally, Sheol, the place of the dead], You are there." That may not be the same as the "hell" (frequently "Gehenna" in the NT, I believe) that you're talking about; but it might. If Christ descended into hell and preached to the spirits in prison, then that wasn't *quite* eternal banishment. Incidentally, not in this case in particular, but in some stuff I've not quoted, I've seen a tendency to back up a doctrine that seems questionable by simply stating "the Scriptures teach" rather than providing citations. I don't claim to have a theologian's knowledge of the Scripture (or even to match the moderator or some of this group's studious contributors), but I know my way around fairly well (though I still tend to discover new stuff, as do most people who read Scripture with any seriousness); and sometimes I find myself quite unable to think of any actual Scripture that supports the doctrine in question. Since I'm interested in truth, because falsehood is not compatible with the abounding of life that Christ wants to well up in us like a fountain of living water, if something odd-seeming is claimed to be supported by this "unerring" book, I'd like to know where in the book so I can look at it and at the surrounding text myself. Remember, "a Bible text out of context is pretext" (a statement that may, for all I know, apply to my own verse quotations in this article); thus, believe it or not, I agree, at least to an extent, with Dave Mielke's idea that there is consistency -- assuredly not ridiculous inconsistency -- within Scripture, certainly within the same book of the Bible. (Paradoxes may abound, but that's not the same thing.) And I agree with him too that prayer for enlightenment and wisdom to understand the Scripture correctly is needed. But it's not an irksome necessity. For all the fear I have of God, for all the trouble I have with His desiring mercy and not sacrifice and commanding me to -- not just be nice to, but to actually love my neighbor (not to mention Him) -- the chance to talk with someone who loves me unconditionally (with "tough love" very often, but still love) is one of the greatest privileges of being a Christian. We're coming to what I see as the foundation, the key point; understanding Scripture profits you little unless John 17:3 is realized in your life: "This is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." "Know", not "know about". This, coupled with Jesus's (indeed the whole NT's) repeated emphasis of the theme of love, indicates that *relationships* -- relationship between people and God, relationships among people -- are the key issue, the centrally important concern, as far as God sees it. Initially these relationships are fractured, particularly the first. But then, if we allow it, the miracle of I John 4:19, "We love because He first loved us", can begin to heal these aching breaks. It's no accident that (again, as far as I know) the same Greek word can be translated either "savior" or "healer", and that Jesus implicitly called himself a physician (of sick hearts as well as sick bodies). "We love, because He first loved us." Oh, if only we were better at letting that beautiful statement reach fruition! -- -- Jeff Sargent att!ihlpb!jeffjs (UUCP), jeffjs@ihlpb.att.com (Internet) AT&T Bell Laboratories, IH 5A-433, Naperville, IL (312) 979-5284 "Swing low, Iscariot...."