Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: dg-rtp!gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Predestination and Judgement Message-ID: Date: 22 Jul 89 21:48:23 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Data General Corporation, Research Triangle Park, NC Lines: 107 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article hedrick@geneva.rutgers.edu writes: > >On any major subject, such as predestination, there is going >to be evidence on both sides. Yes, we try to come up with ways of >reconciling it, and fitting everything together. But there are always >a few pieces left over after we put everything together. I'd like to >see just a little sign that people realize this. That is, I'd like >to see some sign of humility in these interpretations. I didn't want this to be taken as a personal attack--so I deleted your comments about a previous poster. I have long been amazed at some of the provincial thinking that passes for theological thought. Yet when I read the Bible I can understand some of it. IMHO, it comes from within the human being. There seems to be a need to be Right regardless, so people use our Lord and God and the Bible as weapons of their righteousness. God says! The Bible says! are the shouts heard. And if others don't agree, then they must be blind or worse. Had I not gone through this myself, I probably wouldn't be sensitive to it. Nor would I now have a strong desire to share with other Christians in a search for a better understanding of Scripture and our Lord and God. > I deleted a lot of the discussion only because I have not had the time to sit down and study the quoted passages in depth. Also, the only passages I have are the ones from this post. I would like to know what other passages you mean when you said there are others. > >So the question remains, how do I deal with the apparent contradiction >between large portions of the NT where various people clearly teach >about a judgement, and these small hints of something else. In my >opinion the only way to do this without butchering the text is to >maintain the tension. In Rom 11:25, Paul calls God's final goal a >secret truth. In my opinion, we must maintain that God will judge us. >And yet. Somehow the hope remains as a small voice that in the end God >will still find a way to redeem people. I'm not saying >that the Bible is self-contradictory. I don't think it is. But I do >think there is a tension there that is not completely resolved, and >probably will not be until we see things "face to face". One thing that has really struck me is that the Jews seemed to generally not understand that eventually the Church would come. We can look back and in light of the NT and see the Church in the OT. To the Jews, this was a "secret truth." Thus, to me it seems reasonable that we, Christians, don't know the whole of God's plan. We often want to think we do, but as Paul points out "we see through a glass darkly." As for salvation, I think one of the greatest passages is the one that tells us that it was faith that saved even the OT folks--not the sacrifices offered. Yet, this was only hinted at in the OT--"You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise." (Psalm 51:16, 17) I don't want to over interpret the above passage, but the point remains that sacrifices were not what saved the Jews--it was their faith in God. The same holds for us today--our faith in Jesus Christ saves us. What does this say for the future and for those you are concerned with in this posting. I understand your concern and see how difficult are the passages you quoted (esp. Luke). But I see God at work throughout the history of mankind trying to bring us back to Him. Therein rests my hopes for all, that God will continue to work and strive to bring all to Himself. Yes, I am aware of the passage that says that God will not always strive with man to save him. But when will God quit striving? 5 years from now? 50 years from now? 1000 years from now? 1,000,000 years from now? Does anyone dare to tell God when He will stop striving? Further, if the Gospel we believe is one of Love and Hope, isn't that also a key factor here. I think it is. So far God has demonstrated His great Love for mankind through Jesus, and I take Hope from this that God will work all things together in such fashion as to continue drawing mankind to Him. How? Here I can only fall back on Paul's secret truth. Maybe not the most satisfactory of defenses, but I simply don't know how God intends to work everything out. But I am quite willing to let God do His thing--my calling isn't to be God's advisor. If I have caused anyone hurt by the above, I apologize and ask you to forgive me. I didn't do deliberately. If any of you think I'm wrong, I'm willing to accept such counsel and teaching as you are willing to give. My sole desire in all of this is to share what I understand and to share the Love with you who are called Christians. > >I am very wary of manufacturing an easy consistency by >clever interpretation. Is that what I have done? I hope not. I recall listening to a man give his testimony one time. Seems he had been heavily involved in worshipping Satan. He found it amusing when Christians told him that if he didn't change his ways he was going to Hell. He found it amusing because as a Satan worshipper that is exactly where he wanted to go. What drew him to Christ was the Love. It was something he could not understand, why would Jesus love me when I am one of His biggest enemy? Now he understands and that is the emphasis of his ministry. Peace, Gene