Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: bnr-fos!bnr-public!davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: None should perish (was Re: Williamson's Regulative Principle) Message-ID: Date: 22 Jul 89 21:51:16 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada Lines: 179 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article fibercom!lab@uunet.uu.net (Lance Beckner) writes: >Then why do we need to pray for His will to be done on earth as it is in >heaven? :-) We are always to pray that His will be done, but this does not necessarily mean that His will is that there be no sin in the earth. Romans 1:24 tells us "Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:". Romans 1:26 begins "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections:". Romans 1:28 further states "And even as they did not like to retain God in {their} knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;". God's will for this earth is to bring it into judgment after having removed all those whom He planned to save from it so that they would not be harmed. Since this is His will, it is for this to be done that we must pray. >As a matter of fact, I would go so far as to say that NOTHING happens that >God does not allow. I am sure that you would agree with me on that. Yes, I do agree with this statement whole heartedly. >I believe that this speaks of God's FOREKNOWLEDGE of Israel's rejection. >not His DESIRE for their rejection. Can you give me any biblical support >for the theory that God DESIRED for Israel to worship and serve non- >existent gods? It was God's will to sacrifice His only begotten Son at the hand of man, and to accomplish this He had to be rejected by man. Speaking of the new heaven and the new earth, Revelation 21:23 tells us "And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb {is} the light thereof.". Study this wording very carefully and you will see that the Lamb is the glory of God. God is telling us that the Lamb is the means through which He will display His glory to those with whom He will share eternity. I am sure that there will be no disagreement when I say, without going into a long proof, that the Lamb is a symbol of Christ as the perfect sacrifice for sin. If His perfect sacrifice for sin, i.e. His taking upoin Himself the equivalent of eternal damnation for those whom He has saved, is the means by which He has chosen to display His glory throughout eternity then we must assume that that was His plan all along. He could not have accomplished this without having allowed sin to enter into HIs creation and without allowing people to so absolutely reject Him. >I'm sorry, but this is a very bad argument. You are implying that God >wants us to sin so that we won't develop the sin of pride. In other words, >God wants us to sin so that we may be kept from sin. That doesn't make any >sense. You use the word WANT when I meant the word permit. During this phase of our lives we are to consider our most important task to be the spreading of His Gospel message to the unsaved people of this world. At the same time we must be on-going, living examples of the power of God. One of the major problems with unsaved people is their insistence on only concentrating on things with a short-term duration; the reason that sin exists is because people, without the grace of God, elect short-term pleasures with long-term and, therefore, easy to ignore consequences rather than short-term true patience with long-term intimate sharing of God's glory. If we were to be instantaneously made perfect then we would not be, from the point of view of an unsaved person (and even from our own point of view since we are still in sinful bodies), an on-going example of the power of God because we would not be continually conquering sin in our lives. Unsaved people would also pay absolutely no attention to us because they could not identify with us. Even Christ had to be identifyable with us. Hebrews 2:18 tells us "For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.". Hebrews 4:15 tells us "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as {we are, yet} without sin.". The only reason that Jesus did not actually succumb to sin was because He had both a sinless soul and a sinless body. At present, we only have the luxury of having been given a new, sinless soul. If we were to be given a sinless body while still living among sin then we would become potential candidates for being perfect sacrifices and then Christ would not have been unique and preeminent. >If what you are saying were true, then God hates me (because I *DO* sin). >He also hates you and every other person on this planet according to your >statement above. For ALL have sinned (Romans 3:23). Although God hates a person who sins, (what exactly do you do with Scriptures like Psalm 5:5 and Psalm 11:5 which are part of God's Word and cannot be ignored to avoid this truth), His perfect righteousness will not permit Him to even see sins that have been paid for. If Christ paid for the sins of a given person then God no longer sees the sins of that person and, therefore, can no longer hate him. >Friend, If God hates all people that sin, then no one has a chance! > > But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were > still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8 (NKJV) As you yourself stated elsewhere in this response, >In case you didn't know, Paul is writing to Christians here. This is not a proof that God does not hate non-Christians. He loves those whom He has planned to save but not actually saved yet because their sins have already been paid for even if the actual bestowing of His gift of salvation is not complete yet. Speaking of John 3:16 which says "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.". >No, we don't "know" that. The Bible says that "God so loved the world" >NOT that "God so loved the elect (or the chosen or whatever)" This is a classic case where those who accuse me of reading things into Scriptures that are not there do so themselves. I'm not sure if you ever have accused me of doing that, but others who have also interpret this verse in the same way. This verse does not say that God "so loved all people"; it says that He "so loved the world". I know of no way to make the word "world" mean "people". This verse is telling us of God's love for His creation. God's great love for His creation could only refer to how He planned for it to end up; it would not refer to any intirim stages that it would have to go through. Romans 8:22 tells us "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.". The creation is presently under a curse so God's love for it cannot possibly refer to its present state. There is no way to interpret John 3:16, even completely literally, as telling us that God loves each and every person in the world. The curse, by the way, under which the creation is currently groaning can be found within God's curse upon men through Adam in Genesis 3:17-19 which says "And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed {is} the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat {of} it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou {art}, and unto dust shalt thou return.". >That's right. He didn't bring the ones that rejected the Gospel to >salvation. But for the grace of God, even those who are now saved would not have voluntarily accepted the Gospel message. Ephesians 2:1-3 tells us of ourselves "And you {hath he quickened}, who were dead in trespasses and sins: Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.". We did not start out life in any different state than any other person who is as yet unsaved, including those who will remain unsaved and end up in hell where they will suffer the wrath of God. Speaking of Acts 2:47 which says "Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.". >Those that believed should be saved. Those that didn't, shouldn't. The >invitation went out to all. But not all responded. Yes, but why did they believe? Please give God, and not those who believed, the glory! >Dave, let me close by saying that I think we are at an impasse here. I'm >sure that you will respond to this article, but unless you have something >new for me to consider, I probably won't respond. I don't see any sense >in us throwing scripture at each other over this subject any longer. (I'm >sure the rest of the group would agree.) I don't expect to change your mind, >and I KNOW that you won't change mine. It has been fun and challenging. I >hope that there are no hard feelings. I know that there are none on my part. You essentially obligated me to respond by asking me a few questions. Assuming that they were not merely rhetorical, I do not believe that it would be right to leave them unanswered. Be assured that I do in no way have any bad feelings toward you simply because we do not agree on this matter. It is only through open and honest discussion using the Word of God as a basis that any of us can hope to both cross-check his own thoughts and learn new things. If you wish to terminate this discussion then I shall cease. One last comment that I would like to make is that I have learned that I can never change anyone's mind no matter how hard I try. It is only God who can do that through His Word, and then only if that person is wrong and if God wants to correct his misunderstanding. For all we know, it may serve His will to have any one of us temporarily misled. We would all do well to remember that, since we still live within our sinful bodies, any one of us could be wrong on any given point. We must all remember that God is the only one who knows the absolute truth and 2 Peter 1:20 which says "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.". Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 856 Grenon Avenue Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2B 6G3