Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: bnr-fos!bnr-public!davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: thoughts on the recent exchange Message-ID: Date: 22 Jul 89 21:53:37 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada Lines: 124 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article procsy@cbnewsd.att.com (Jeff Sargent) writes: >The first is that I find myself wondering if Mielke's emphasis on our being, >e.g., "hopelessly sinful people" who ought to be punished, has more a >psychological than a Scriptural basis. You go on to indicate that perhaps I am so preoccupied with the totally sinful and hopeless state of all mankind because I may have some sort of hidden guilt that is inflicting this outlook upon myself. You are correct in recognizing that I am preoccupied with this fact, but your assessment of the reason couldn't be further from the truth. I'm sure that you are familiar with the basic Scriptural teaching that the penalty for sin is eternal damnation. I am sure that you are also familiar with Romans 3:23 which sumarizes "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;". I find myself wanting to ask you exactly whom you feel this exempts? James 2:10 informs us "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one {point}, he is guilty of all.". Romans 1:30 informs us that something as "insignificant" as being disobedient to ones parents is sin, and is, therefore, deserving of hell in and of itself; which ones of us are not guilty of this one? Ephesians 2:1-3, which I have quoted in another posting but shall repeat here for convenience, tells us how both the unsaved and the saved before they become so are hopelessly dead in their sins. It says "And you {hath he quickened}, who were dead in trespasses and sins: Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.". There are those who think that, even though a person is hopelessly dead in his sins, he is still able to be receptive to the Gospel message on his own. This is just not so. Psalm 53:1-4 tells us "The fool hath said in his heart, {There is} no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: {there is} none that doeth good. God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were {any} that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; {there is} none that doeth good, no, not one. Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people {as} they eat bread: they have not called upon God.". Romans 3:10-18 tells us "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat {is} an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps {is} under their lips: Whose mouth {is} full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet {are} swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery {are} in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.". What do you think God means in Psalm 51:17 where He says "The sacrifices of God {are} a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.". Do you think He means that we are to approach Him as we theorize how we can use our own clever attempts at wording to minimize the hard truths that He wants us to face? I do not think we should take very lightly the words of Jesus in Matthew 7:22-23 where we are told "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.". There is no doubt in my mind that this is telling us that there will be plenty of people who were so convincingly professing Christianity even though God had never actually saved them. Let us not forget that Paul gave us a very good guildeline to determine if we were really bringing the true Gospel message or not, i.e. if what we are saying is in any way pleasing to unsaved man then it is not the truth. In Galatians 1:10 he says "For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.". We can try to argue our way around these truths if we want to, but I submit that we do it at our own peril. You couldn't be more than correct when you notice my preoccupation with the hopelessness of mankind without the grace of God, which no individual member of mankind can initiate or even cares about on his own. It is not hidden guilt that has stimulated this preoccupation; it is, rather, the revealed knowledge of the universal fact that, without the grace of God, we truly are all subject to hell! We are to plead with God for His grace, and not to expect it because we claim on our own that we believe in Him. Since this kind of claim is completely unScriptural, anyone who makes it does not really believe in God because he is not faithfully believing everything that God has told us. You seem to indicate that you feel that I am going overboard when I say that we all so rightly deserve hell. I wish you were right. I say it because God has told us this fact. Since God's judgments are truly righteous, and since our own preconceived ideas of what God's judgments ought to be are so tainted with sin that we dare not rely on our own personal feelings, I know that if I stick to saying what the Scriptures say then I am right, but if I permit myself to deviate and say what I would like to think then I couldn't be further from the truth. I say that we so rightly deserve hell because God says that we deserve it. Are you questioning Him? I would like to conclude with a directive to all Christians which can be found in Ezekiel 33:1-10 which says "Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman: If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people; Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head. He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul. But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take {any} person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand. So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me. When I say unto the wicked, O wicked {man}, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked {man} shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins {be} upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?". Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 856 Grenon Avenue Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2B 6G3