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From: caefletch@uqvax.decnet.uq.oz
Newsgroups: comp.databases,comp.software-eng
Subject: Re: 4GL and  Application Prototyping in Databases
Message-ID: <4108@uqvax.decnet.uq.oz>
Date: 25 Jul 89 07:51:53 GMT
References: <378@proexam.UUCP>
Organization: University Of Queensland
Lines: 61

In article <378@proexam.UUCP>, glen@proexam.UUCP (Glen Brydon) writes:
> I have been trying to build applications in Ingres 4GL for several years now.
> Recently we have been trying to find someone who can help in this process, but
> have found relatively few individuals who have any significant experience in
> using this system (perhaps Ingres, but not the 4GL). I have long since become
> frustrated with the system for the following reason - there is no forms based
> method of building the framework for an application without requiring me to
> generate tons of OSL (4GL) code which ends up being traditional 3GL code.
> 
> RTI does provide a tool that is forms based and intellegent called:
> Query by Forms (QBF), but while providing a fairly nice minimal application
> it does not allow me to extend that tool to do the things I might want.
> QBF is designed to browse and modify tables and simple joins, but I want to
> hook into the mechanism with my own constraints or code fragments. No such
> facility exists. Alternatively I would settle for a library of well structured
> tools which I can use to get the same functionality as QBF, but which I can
> insert into my own application - no dice. Without this nonexistent library
> my applications tend quickly toward being too big (for 4GL) and very difficult
> to maintain as I need to change even simple features of the form.
> 
> One candidate recently told me that he would be quite happy to help me develop
> applications for my firm if I would only dump INGRES in favor of Oracle. While
> we have currently invested a fair amount of time, effort and $$$ into our
> current direction, I do not feel wedded to INGRES. I am now registered to
> attend a sales presentation seminar for Oracle directed toward Government
> installations using UNIX. This man who wants me to dump INGRES has spent
> some amount of time evaluating and developing in Ingres, Oracle as well and
> Informix. He says that Informix is simply a joke, and that while Ingres is
> a pretty good database, it falls far short of Oracle in this area of allowing
> the developer to quickly build applications in such a way that the complexity
> is controlled and maintenance does not become a nightmare. His final comment
> was that Sybase, while being often selected for its top-notch transaction
> performance is not quite as good as Oracle. Sybase and Oracle consider
> each other to be competetors and neither consider Ingres to be one.
> 
> As I browse through the advertisments for application development products
> and databases with such support it looks as though everyone has it on the
> competition. A recent UNIX review magazine issue listed the following
> products:
> 	Informix - 3 times faster than any other 4GL?
> 	Oracle - largest database company (so what?) speed WITH power
> 	Ingres - CASE tools (not just yet!)
> 	Empress - compares itself to Oracle, Informix, Ingres and Sybase
> 	Interbase - BLOBS and capturing "business rules"?
> 	PROGRESS - compared to Oracle and informix by DATAPRO satisfaction rating
> 	Unify ACCELL - application generator works with any RDBMS!
> 	JYACC JAM - same as ACCELL?
> 
> So we have the integrated database systems with application development
> systems and the application generators which work on any database. Without
> the opportunity to use more than one system and approach it would seem very
> difficult to know for sure who has the best approach.
> 
> Now for the point to all of this - would people with comments, advice
> and warning please share it with the rest of us? Anyone who feels that they
> understand the basic approach to so called application development tools
> could possibly describe to us what makes their approach unique, etc.
> Does your system do more than simply give you a forms/menu environment and
> database access? Thanks for your knowledge/advice/comments.
> 
> Glen Brydon