Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!gatech!mcnc!uvaarpa!virginia!toylnd!dca
From: dca@toylnd.UUCP (David C. Albrecht)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Re: No more Cinemaware stuff for Amiga !!!????
Message-ID: <283@toylnd.UUCP>
Date: 4 Aug 89 17:31:15 GMT
References: <6712@warpdrive.UUCP> <1505@ndmath.UUCP>
Organization: Dave & Anne, Charlottesville VA.
Lines: 146

> In article <1505@ndmath.UUCP>, milo@ndmath.UUCP (Greg Corson) writes:
> The only real way to end software piracy (in the real world with the kind
> of people that are out there) is to make the cost and inconvenience of 
> copying a game MORE than the purchase price.  This has consistantly proven
> to be the case in many other industries.
> 
> Publishing for instance...nobody makes copies of a paperback book, because
> it would be too much of a pain to copy a book that only costs $4.  People
> rarely copy hard back books, because it's easier just to wait for an 
> inexpensive paperback to come out.
> 
> Records & CD's are somewhat easier to copy...however a lot of people would
> rather spend the $8-15 to get an original than go to the bother of making
> a tape.
> 
 
 Get real.  Note that books have a market considerably larger than
 computers i.e. potentially every person that reads the lingo could buy your
 book.  Sales in the millions are not uncommon.  Production cost is stamping
 ink on cheap paper.  Not much.  Obviously they can afford to be cheap.
 
 Records & CDs similarly address a large homogeneous market and language
 is sometimes less important than in the book market.  Potential audience is
 still quite large, again millions.
 
> I can understand the reasons why things like C compilers & such sell for $500
> and I'm willing to pay that much because I understand the product has a 
> limited market.  A game, however, should NOT cost $50!  (particularly some
> of the ROTTEN games I've seen out there).  A lot of the games I've seen
> I would consider worth $5-$10 but VERY few are of $50 quality.
> 
> I think a lot of manufacturers have to get with it, pricing wise, computer
> prices have been coming down at a staggering rate, but game software costs
> have actually gone up.  Today I can buy a major motion picture that cost
> $40 MILLION dolars to make...for $19.95...I can buy a 500 page novel that
> someone took a year to write...for $5.  Games certainly cost less to develop
> than a major movie, require about the same effort as a major paperback novel
> and cost less to duplicate than the average video tape.  Granted, the market
> is smaller, but so are the development costs.
> 
> I wish that just ONCE a software company would TRY distributing a really good
> game for $10 a copy...just to see what happens.  If the sales of Dragon's 
> Lair are as bad as people have been saying (since piracy) maby the manufacturer
> could try it with that package as a test (what have they got to loose if
> sales are near 0 now).
> 
 In the production of a game there are advertising costs, actual media and
 duplication costs, manual production costs and duplication costs, boxing,
 shipping, and dealer cut, game development costs, facilities cost, any
 show attendances, plus one would hope, some modicum of profit, all into a
 market that numbers in the 10s of 1000s not the millions.
 
 Note also that the amount of product going through the various people along
 the stages is much less than that in the book or record market so the dollar
 cut they take will necessarily be higher, they don't sell as many items.
 By the same token they won't stock as many copies because unsold software is
 more crucial than unsold books.
 
 In my thumbnail survey, the typical game goes around $35 mail order retail.
 Given the costs and the size of the market that doesn't seem unreasonable to
 me.  If a game costs more than I'm willing to pay I don't moan, I don't bitch,
 I don't pirate, I just don't buy it.  Simple.  Yes, sometimes you get burned.
 But realise that to some degree how good a game is, is subjective.  Even if it
 truly is crap, I have read any number of paperbacks that were trashcan
 material as well.  That doesn't excuse abusing those who make decent games or
 decent books.
 
 The cost of developing software passed the cost of developing hardware long
 ago.  This is endemic to the industry, not just game production.  Even so,
 we can draw some parallels.  Note that even an expensive development process
 can get lost easily in the cost of even cheap computers of any significant
 volume.  Note that the major high priced components of computing (disk drives
 floppies and hard, memory, displays, power supplies, microprocessors) have
 tremendous volume and shared costs across many different vendors of computers.
 Note also that most of these components are made of smaller components many
 of which also have tremendous volume and are shared across many different
 vendors of all kinds.  In fact virtually all of the components of the typical
 computer is based on standard building blocks which address a large market.
 Therefore, as production improves and volume goes up on these building blocks
 they get cheaper (to a point).  Software as yet has resisted such efforts at
 modularity.  Even though you can find tools to make some tasks easier
 i.e. Power Windows, C-BTrees, etc.  Generally substantial portions of any
 given project will have to be coded from scratch.
 
 Major motion pictures generally go two THREE markets and make big bucks at each
 one.  First they go to the movies where MILLIONS go to see them at $5 a pop.
 Then they go to cable which pays them a tidy sum.  Finally they make it to
 video where they typically don't sell for $19.95 unless the film was a major
 blockbuster and they figure they are going to sell a sh*tload of videotapes.
 Again, we are talking a HUGE MARKET.  Repeat after me HUGE MARKET, ENORMOUS,
 GRAND WOPPERINO.
 
 It is debateable whether the average game costs less to develop than many
 major paperback novels.  They typically have several people developing them
 some programming, some doing artwork, some writing manuals, it could be but
 I wouldn't want to place any money on it.  I'm not even sure that the
 duplication costs of the average game are that much less than the average
 video tape.  Just the disk maybe, but you have to add the boxing and the
 manual, plus putting all the stuff together and shrink wrapping.  I'll bet
 the actual duplication cost of a video tape ain't much.
 
 $10  Uh huh.  Figure the dealer takes half, given he's willing to
 allot you shelf space for a product that is going to make him very little
 money even if it moves like hot cakes since the average Amiga dealer probably
 doesn't have that many customers. We're are down to $5.  Figure a couple of
 bucks for duplication  (this is minimal, Dragon's lair is probably more,
 consider how many disks we are talking about).  Figure a buck or so to
 ship the sucker around.  We've got $2 left. Figure it sells 40,000 copies
 (twice Dragon's Lair's numbers).  80K when you consider payroll, facility
 cost, material costs probably about covers one year worth of one full time
 good programmer.  No profit, doesn't cover things like returned defective
 disks, and user phone line support, any people other than the single
 programmer.  In other words, NOT BLOODY LIKELY.  
 
 No one has tried it because it isn't worth trying.  In the IBM PC marketplace
 they could probably sell a game for $20 or less and still make money on it,
 in the Amiga marketplace selling at $35 they are still probably not raking in
 the dough.  If you want a basis for comparison look at the price of computer
 books, something with a more comparitive market.  Look at the price of K&R it
 goes for >$30 these days and the friggin thing is a paperback, I guarantee it
 costs less to duplicate than any computer game.  I suspect it sells to a
 larger market than most computer games except for maybe the IBM marketplace.
 It certainly isn't the only example.
 
 It's true that making the theft costs near the selling price is the only final
 solution.  But it simply isn't a practical solution in anything but the largest
 markets.  That doesn't mean that piracy should be condoned or rationalized with
 the usual idiotic 'they shouldn't charge so much for it if they didn't want it
 to be pirated'.  Kindergarten reasoning.  Some people learn at an early age
 that if I want something in a store I save up my money and buy it, if it costs
 too much then I look for something else to keep me happy, I don't stuff it
 under my coat and make off with it 'because it cost too much'.  Some people
 seem to have a hard time with this rather simple principle.  And spare me
 the rationalizing bushwa about how it isn't really stealing anything tangible
 because its crap.
> 
> Greg Corson
> P.S.  Just so you know I'm not talking through my hat...I develop games
>       as part of my living...so I know the effort involved.
 Greg, do you develop any products other than on-line games where you get
 on-line royalties and thus advertising, distribution, retailing, and piracy
 isn't an issue?  Just for my own edification, have you really developed games
 where significant original game design is required, large amounts of artwork,
 sound and machine specific coding is required?
 
 David Albrecht