Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!gatech!unmvax!polyslo!dorourke
From: dorourke@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU (David M. O'Rourke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: Re: Subtantiatng my criticism (was: simple text interface)
Message-ID: <13220@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU>
Date: 4 Aug 89 08:40:35 GMT
References: <9674@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> <43528@bbn.COM> <14780@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU> <183@dbase.UUCP> <14834@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU>
Reply-To: dorourke@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU (David M. O'Rourke)
Organization: Cal Poly State University -- San Luis Obispo
Lines: 98

ari@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Ari Halberstadt) writes:
>UNIX experience comes in handy. UNIX offers a superb combination of
>tools, which can all be stringed together to form even more powerful
>tools, either by using pipes, or by using the shell.

  so does any "older" system.  IMHO you are confusing a large and well
established software base with an operating system.  I can do those same
things with MPW, or any decent development system.  UNIX is not required
for doing pipes.  You are confusing the shell's "user interface" and 
believeing it to be the operating system.  But if you run X-Windows/Sun View
or any other windowing system on top of a unix system and don't open up
a shell window you now have the same limitations of the Macintosh.  From
your arguments you don't like Unix, you like it's shell.

>Another bonus in UNIX is the uniformity of the file types: nearly all files
>are text only. This means that you can run a program such as grep, and
>send its output directly to a sort, or to awk, or what have you. Files

  You are assuming that the only thing worth while is text.  Granted text
processing of various kinds make up many of the chores of a computer
science person.  Unix was designed around text only systems.  I can do many
of the things that you list on an Atari 800, or MS Dos machine.  The Mac
was designed with a bitmap screen and graphical interface.  It's primary
purpose is not to let programmers pipe software, it's to let people use
computers.  Take the mythical magical average business/home/personal
user.  What would that person do with piping, grep and awk.  The piping
metaphor works quite well for "batch" processing but falls apart quite
rapidly when you move into interactive enviroments.  That average mac user
doesn't understand unix or want to, so Unix like features aren't important.
Again if you want Unix like features I've been quite happy with MPW as a
CLI, and if you restrict yourself to text only files, all mac text editors
allow you to use those files.  Even on Unix with all of it's wonderful
stuff when you start using some of the end user software your in the same
boat as you are on a Macintosh.  The files are no longer text only, and you
can't use the standard tools to "manipulate" them.  Again you're confusing
your use of unix text editors & the shell for an operating system.  There
are lots of Unix programs that put stuff other than text in a file.  If all
I did on the mac was text only editors and such I could do many of those
same wonderful "features" of unix, but I don't do text only processing, so
I can't.

>A major blunder of the Macintosh designers was to run the mac in supervisor
>mode all the time. This means that any silly program can do anything it wants
>to the rest of the system. Today, this creates horrible problems when working
>under multi-finder, since the smallest bug in a program can cause the whole
>system to bomb, causing you to lose tons of work. This would never happen
>on UNIX. UNIX is also more robust in the structure of its file system,
>which means system crashes will be less harmful [see "The Design and
>Implementation of the 4.3bsd UNIX Operating System"].

  See the design and hardware requirements of a Unix Operating System.  The
resources that Unix requires to implement all of that fancy stuff add cost to
the machine that you run it on.  That mac isn't a Unix machine, it was
designed with other goals in mind.  Unix eats up a ton or resources, disk
space, memory, processor time etc.  Unix may have started out small, but 
these days how many people would be willing to run a Unix system off of
a 20 meg hard disk, 1 meg of RAM, and an internal 800k floppy.  Lots and
lots of people use this exact configuration everyday, and it is perfectly
sufficient for their needs.  I LOVE Unix, but for gods sake my father doesn't
need unix for him to type a letter, or add up a column of #'s.  The Mac/Amiga/
MS-Dos {ugh} computers are ideal for people to use as, follow me closely here,
personal computers.  What a concept, you mean someone can have their own
computer, with out a network, or system administrator, or 200 megs of
hard disk just for the operating system, gosh now isn't that a novel idea.
Unix is good, but don't try and make the Mac work like a Unix machine, if you
use the Mac for what it's good for you'll be much happier.

>I could go on, but I don't have the time right now. I think my point
>is obvious. Besides, I realize menus and dialogs are easier to learn, but
>once you get past them, and really want to integrate your system, how do
>you do it? On the mac it's difficult to impossible.

  Ya know theres a lot of people who don't ever get past menus and dialogs.
I've had lots of experience with people, and most people CAN'T MEMORIZE
commands, and even if they could they DON'T WANT TO, it's not their job.
The computer to them is a tool, not a quest.  Use it to get the info in and
out in the shortest amount of time/effort possible.  Then go home and FORGET
about it.  Computer Science types are a minority, we still are, and 
probably will be for many years to come.  We need to help humanize computers
so that others can use them, and what we consider a useful metaphor might
not be the best way to make others use our tools.  If you look beyond your
own personal needs I think you'll see the Mac as a unique tool that has the
potential to keeps all kinds of people happy.  But please don't try and use
a Macintosh like a unix machine, unix machines are better than the mac at
unix, and macintosh's are better than unix in some ways.

> [goes on with complaints that MPW isn't really unix, and it should be]

  Then go buy a Unix machine.  If you bought the Mac to run Unix, or do Unix
type things then I can understand your disappointment.  And if you can't
afford a Unix machine, I wonder why that is??? :-)

  Oh well just another $0.02 worth.
-- 
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\|/////////////////////////////////////////
David M. O'Rourke____________________|_____________dorourke@polyslo.calpoly.edu
|  God doesn't know, he would have never designed it like that in the first   |
|_ place. ____________________________________________________________________|