Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!iuvax!purdue!gatech!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!geneva.rutgers.edu!christian From: tytso@athena.mit.edu (Theodore Ts'o) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Predestination and Judgement Message-ID: Date: 31 Jul 89 01:55:42 GMT Sender: hedrick@geneva.rutgers.edu Lines: 47 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu [Context: My claim that you must accept the fact that the authors of the bibles must either have no free will or were infallible.] Joeseph Buehler wrote: >You are assuming a relationship between grace and free will here that I >don't find reasonable. > >Why can't God have someone infallibly do something without violating >their free will? Why should He have to violate the nature of His >creatures in order to guide them to their destination? If I or anyone else resist His grace, there is no way God can do anything through that person, let alone something infallible. Unfortunately, there is no way for anyone but God to know whether or not a person has perfectly submitted him or herself to His Grace. Because of this, I refuse to raise to Divine status anything which depends on anybody's perfect submission to grace --- even my own! (I imagine many of the butchers of the Inquisition were convinced they were doing God's will and full of grace.) And so I refuse to take as infallible either the Bible or Pope --- to me, they are the same expression of the universal desire to have something which finite to be absolute and beyond question. Joey Paul has said that without some solid anchor, there would be chaos in our lives. I submit that it is this universal fear which causes people to idolize the Bible. What then do I use for my authority? Well, I pray, study the Bible, consult other Christian writers, ask my pastor for advice, and many other things. I will readily admit that this requires much more anguish and soul-searching than blindly believing some verse just because it can be found in the pages of a book that happens to be labeled ``The Bible''. As for the danger Joey pointed out of raising ourselves as idols because we have to make judgements on what is reliable and what is not: This is very true. However, it is also possible to approach the scriptures with a humble heart and an awake brain. ("Let us be as innocent as doves, and as wise as foxes") Of course, it goes without saying that you should also ask the Holy Spirit to help guide you to the truth. I try not to introduce my biases into my bible studies, but at least I recognize that they might exist. If it is a group bible study, I draw comfort from the promise that when two or more are gathered in Jesus's name, there he is amongst us. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Theodore Ts'o bloom-beacon!mit-athena!tytso 3 Ames St., Cambridge, MA 02139 tytso@athena.mit.edu Everybody's playing the game, but nobody's rules are the same!