Path: utzoo!mnetor!geac!jtsv16!brian From: brian@jtsv16.UUCP (Brian A. Jarvis) Newsgroups: can.general Subject: Re: What does it mean to be a Canadian? Message-ID: <1049@jtsv16.UUCP> Date: 8 Aug 89 13:40:50 GMT References: <615662921.9256@myrias.uucp> <568@UALTAVM.BITNET> <609@philmtl.philips.ca> <1458@apss.apss.ab.ca> <1989Jul27.235845.24886@tmsoft.uucp> <1034@jtsv16.UUCP> <6713@cognos.UUCP> <1042@jtsv16.UUCP> <6742@heraclitus.UUCP> Reply-To: brian@jtsv16.jts.com (Brian A. Jarvis) Distribution: can Organization: JTS Computer Systems Ltd., Toronto Lines: 110 In article <6742@heraclitus.UUCP> rayt@cognos.UUCP (R.) writes: >In article <1042@jtsv16.UUCP> Brian A. Jarvis writes in response to my >contention that advocating a laissez-faire market to decide the survival >of national industries (Canadian versus American, in this case) is >idealistic, > >>If we are to maintain core industries, export markets, a decent balance >>of trade/payment and a standard of living, we obviously don't want to >>waste time, effort and money in some venture we have precious little >>chance in success; let us instead concentrate on items in which we have >>advantages. > >I'm not sure how to take this. The problem is in the ambiguity of `we', >which can either imply a collective effort (i.e. under governmental >supervision and control) or be merely referring to `every Canadian': the >former being a strain of socialist planning, the latter shrewd capitalist >entrepreneurism. Yeah, it *was* rather ambiguous. I'm going to do a little deep thinking before I try to elaborate further on what I meant by "we" before I bury myself too deeply. > Your previous argument against subsidizing farmers (rather >than taxing luxurious consumption via tariffs), however, leads to me believe >that socialist planning is your intent; Good Lord, *NO*! >Shrewd capitalistic entrepreneurism, while lacking the control which would >allow one to have a nationally focused economic purpose, gives one a broader >economic base by promoting idiosyncracy, and relaxes the white-knuckle grip >on personal freedom underlying regimental viewpoints. I have already noted >some problems which obviate the pure implementation of this methodology, >however, but these centre on the necessity of the government to ensure that >the short-sightedness of sections of its population (BOTH producer and >consumer) do not effect the viability of the whole. This is not necessarily >a recipe for guarenteed national prosperity, nor one which will appeal to >those who would sell everyone's freedom for idyllic reveries of justice >and sloth. Regrettably, the more skewed the balance produced by those who >wish to partake of the benefits of such a scheme but undermine its foundation >in practice, the more the government is lead to generally restrictive >countermeasures. One always gets the government one deserves (nationally >speaking). The actual degree of government intervention or assistance required is incredibly variable, changing in great measure from country to country. Here, the government stepping in on a daily basis is expected and demanded; any government that didn't, would be turfed out in short order. I've spent a few nights staring at the ceiling wondering of Dief's A.V.Roe Arrow program problem is a symptom of this malaise. In the U.S., industry says they don't want or need government assistance, but, boy, they sure scramble for those lucrative government and defence contracts. A good many industries couldn't exist without them. In Japan, government involvement is also common, but appears to be limited to financing and macro-managing of certain industries; they don't waste their time trying to run the individual companies from day to day, but get the largest corporations together for planning of a "grand strategy". I agree; people get the government they deserve. We've been stuck with a string of them that are pretty good at redistribution of wealth, but damn poor at generating it. Sometimes I'm absolutely convinced that our current standard of being is pure luck; other times, I look upon it as evidence that there is a merciful God. B{) > Heavy industries like steel and concrete, >however, are considerably more vunerable; essentially because the innovations >are not so much in the PRODUCT as in the MEANS of production. Thus keeping >pace means reworking an enormously expensive plant: Pacific rim countries >are reaping a very nice benefit here as emerging industrialists, for example. Good point. I hadn't thought of it in quite that way. I'll have to work on that in future. >To let these local industries perish on this account with the hope that the >balance of payments can be achieved through higher volumes in the more >successful few, I do not see as realistic. But if you have contradictory >evidence or argument, I am quite interested in reviewing it. >-- >Ray Tigg | Cognos Incorporated Nope, no contradictory evidence here. I can't argue for the complete elimination of all subsidies for all industries; the disruptions nation- wide would be, to say the least, counter-productive. Basically, anywhere that isn't Southern Ontario would be in big trouble. I *do* argue against subsidizing industries for the sake of national pride alone. Hearing the new round of declarations about how Canadian ownership in the energy sector is currently dropping, I can understand arguments about who has control over the resources of Canada. I have one super- radical, nationalistic friend who insists that Via Rail should be supported at all costs and should be rebuilt entirely from the ground up, with new cars, locomotives and stations put up nationwide; when I pointed out the multiple billions of dollars that this would cost over the next couple of years, he said that it was worth it. What if no one rides it? Doesn't matter; it's a national symbol, like the beaver and the flag. *sigh* I did point out that, well, we didn't have a national flag until the 1960's, and we *kill* and skin beavers, but it didn't persuade him. B{) Brian =============================================================================== __ __ Brian A. Jarvis, / ) ...jtsv16!brian / ) J.T.S. Computer Systems Ltd., /--< __ o __. ____ /--/ Downsview, Ontario /___/_/ (_<_(_/|_/ / <_ / ( o My dog, Goof, still says "Hi!" "Lord, defend me from my friends; I can account for my enemies." - D'Hericault ===============================================================================