Path: utzoo!utgpu!watmath!watmsg!sccowan
From: sccowan@watmsg.waterloo.edu (S. Crispin Cowan)
Newsgroups: can.general
Subject: Re: Scene at a Roman Catholic cathedral near you a few years ago.
Message-ID: <28367@watmath.waterloo.edu>
Date: 15 Aug 89 06:13:52 GMT
References: <3984@looking.on.ca> <1479@apss.apss.ab.ca>
Sender: daemon@watmath.waterloo.edu
Reply-To: sccowan@watmsg.waterloo.edu (S. Crispin Cowan)
Organization: U. of Waterloo, Ontario
Lines: 178

In article <1479@apss.apss.ab.ca> jhp@apss.ab.ca (Herb Presley, Emergency Planning Officer) writes:
<In article <3984@looking.on.ca>, brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) writes:
<> Bishop Murphy:  Shocking about Father Jones, isn't it?
<I was waiting for someone to comment in a sarcastic way on one of the greatest 
<human tragedies of our time.  Brad, you didn't disappoint me.  Your comments are
<shallow, uncaring and show a callous disregard for the feelings of both 
<pedophile and victim.
Fuck the pedophile; he lost all of my sympathy when he did the deed.
On the other hand, Brad shows great concern for the victim, and
wonders whether this wasn't done deliberately.
 
<> Smith: What can we do?  We can't excommunicate him.
<Your implied assumption that somehow the church is responsible for a priest's
<behavior simply perpetrates the myth which fuels pedophilic bahavior.  The myth
<is: "I am not responsible for my behavior.  I am this way because of.....(my
<parents, my situation, the anger others arouse in me, the sexual arousal in me
<WHICH I CAN'T CONTROL).....

"Jesus died for your sins.  Make it worth his while."
	fortune -o.
The church specifically encourages the view that an individual is not
responsable for their actions, so long as they seek forgiveness (via
the church, of course).  The church may not think so, but I hold them
responsable.

<> Murphy: No, that would get in all the papers.  We'll do what we always do.
<The fact is neither the community, the family, the church, the school, the law,
<has yet figured out how to deal with this problem.  It has always been with us,

Sure we have; put the pedophiles in jail, simple!

<it only surfaced as a high profile crime in the last decade or so.  Everybody
<wants to hide the problem.  Mainly because most of us don't know how to deal
<with our own feelings of sexual dominance over another human being and the
<surfacing of a problem close to us makes us ashamed.  So we cover our feelings
<up with anger, belligerence, flippancy, etc.  Why should the Roman Catholic
<Church be singled out simply because the media decides for our benefit that the
<crime in a religious context makes great headlines?
Because the RC Church takes great pains to lecture the rest of society
on proper moral conduct while protecting incredibly corrupt individuals,
placed in a position of power and trust, within their organization
while attempting to transfer blame to the victim.  Not even Clifford
Olsen tried to claim that his victims asked for it.

<The fact of the matter is, several hundred arrests are made, charges laid and
<convictions obtained every year in every province.  Only a small number involve
<the RC clergy.  Many of the people are in trust positions with children.  Yet
<they don't get national headline attention.  (No, I'm not a Roman Catholic).

<I would bet that the situations that are revealled every year only involve the
<tip of the iceberg.  Obviously I don't have many statistics.  But I do
<volunteer prison work and the numbers are far greater than any that get
<reported in the press!

<> Smith: Newfoundland?
<Brad, this is not only a crime, it is also a SOCIAL PROBLEM.  Much like the
<history of Alcoholics Anonymous which dealt with alcoholism when it was still 
<taboo to talk about it in our western society.
Alcoholism is a (relatively) victim-less crime that dammages it's
carrier mor than anyone else; comparing the two is not valid.

<						It is also a VALUE PROBLEM that
<arises from our incapacity to discipline (O, O, a bad word!) ouselves in our
<endless searching for sensual gratification and our insistence that children,
<from the time time they are conceived in a mother's womb, are disposable pieces
<of property, to be aborted at will and to use to satisfy our own needs whenever
<we, in society, see fit.

In my experience, children are generally treasured in any civilized
western society.  That's what child-labour laws, pedophile laws,
children's aid societies, etc. are all about.  I don't see any
connection between favouring abortion rights (which I personally do)
and de-valuing children.  Quite the opposite, in fact, since the
Archbishop of whatever in Nova Scotia seems to have been the first to
come out in favour of pedophilia, and I doubt that he favours abortion.
In fact, it seems to me that he values un-born children MORE that the
living ones.

<> Murphy: Newfoundland.
<> 
<> Smith: They'll do no damage there.
< 
<Oh, brother.  I'm assuming that you're trying to be funny, so I'll make no
<comment about how pedophelic behavior causes damage everywhere.

Brad is quite aware of the dammage.  He is making a cynical statement
about how much the church elders care about the people of
Newfoundland; i.e. they don't give a fuck.

<> Think about it.  What other reason can there be?  I mean 18 priests and
<> brothers in a province with 600,000 people?  18 gay, non-celibate, pedophile
<> RC priests & brothers?
<> 
<> No offense to Newfoundlanders, but it doesn't seem you've been treated
<> well.
<I don't know how you expected the RC church to deal with it in any different
<way given the potentially explosive reaction from society.
How about, excommunicate the priests responsible, turn them over to
the police, hang them out to dry, and make sure they never get a
chance to do it agian from a position of publicly recognized
authority?  Nah, better cover it up instead, wouldn't want the pleebs
to clue in that we can make mistakes.

<                                                            Tell me Brad, do
<you have any dark secrets that would turn off your employer, friends, family,
<etc., if you were to reveal them?  Ever have any 'unacceptable' thoughts?  Huh?

Unnacceptable thoughts are completely different from unacceptable
actions.  That's why civilized countries only have action-police (they
bust you for bad things that you do) and the the RC church has
thought-police (in the form of confessional priests) who make you feel
guilty for having thoughts that the church finds 'unnacceptable',
regardless of what the rest of society thinks of such thoughts, or the
disgusting concept of thought-police.

<Here's my suggestions for dealing with this problem:
<1) Everybody in Canada, start to talk openly about this problem.  Let both 
<   victim and pedophile know that you are a caring, supportive person who will 
<   stick with them through all the trauma and hurt of a police investigation, a
<   trial and a possible jail sentence;
RC Church authorities implementation of this:  cover up the crimes of
the pedophile & ship him off to some place that has never heard of
him (where he can do it again with impunity) and make the victim feel
guilty for 'consenting' to the act at the age of seven.  Terrific
support group.

<2) Contact your local mental health authorities and see if you can get a
<   support group started for pedophiles where they can come and honestly talk
<   about their loneliness (a trademark of the behavior), their anxieties, and
<   how to find a way out of a behavior in which they feel trapped.  (You'll
<   likely only be able to deal with pedophiles who are the subject of a police
<   investigation because the current laws now make you liable to criminal
<   prosecution if you do not immediately report any suspected pedophilic
<   behavior to the police or child welfare authorities).
This is a good idea.

<3) Get a victim into therapy immediately, and go with them if necessary to
<   ensure that they have the proper support to deal with their hurt, and their
<   now problematic view of human relationships.  If not, this will cause them
<   great pain in later life when everything has cooled off and they are left
<   with the memories.  In addition, the police and crown prosecutors will often
<   not be very helpful.  You have to remember that their job is to get a
<   conviction, not be supportive.  They may create immense pressure on the
<   victim to testify, and this will add to the trauma.
So does pressure from a bishop telling the victim that it is his
fault.

<4) Write to your MP and urge them to get the police and courts to back off a
<   little in their relentless pursuit of "justice".  Not every situation has to
<   be handled by a jail sentence and the laws should allow judges a little more
<   leeway in how they can deal with this problem.  For example, if someone is
<   seeking counselling and help already, a jail sentence can often cause more
<   grief and pain to both the victim and the pedophile, particularly in family
<   situations.
Bullshit.  Serious crimes like this do not deserve kid gloves.  The
mindset of "he didn't really mean it, and he's getting help" lead to
exactly the same problems that women face with regard to rape; the
offender is treated kindly, and the victim is made to feel like they
are on trial.  Instead of backing off on prosecuting these cases, they
should be persued to the full extent of the law, or the problem will
just persist and grow, as perpetraitors get the idea that a 'sincere'
appology is a free ticket to another crack at the lads.

<____________________________________________________________________
<|* email : jhp@apss.ab.ca	(uunet!utai!alberta!ncc!apss!jhp)  |
<|** mail : 10320 - 146 St. Edmonton, Alberta, Canada  T5N 3A2      |
<|***  ph : (403) 451-7151				           |
<--------------------------------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Login name:	sccowan			In real life: S. Crispin Cowan
Office:		DC3548	x3934		Home phone: 570-2517
Post Awful:	60 Overlea Drive, Kitchener, N2M 1T1
UUCP:		watmath!watmsg!sccowan
Domain:		sccowan@watmsg.waterloo.edu

"Everything to excess.  Moderation is for monks."
	-Lazarus Long