Path: utzoo!dciem!schuck
From: schuck@dciem.dciem.dnd.ca (Mary Margaret Schuck)
Newsgroups: can.general
Subject: Re: Catholic Church bashing!!
Summary: It's everyone's favourite spectator sport!
Message-ID: <2396@dciem.dciem.dnd.ca>
Date: 15 Aug 89 16:18:23 GMT
References: <3984@looking.on.ca> <1479@apss.apss.ab.ca> <28367@watmath.waterloo.edu>
Reply-To: schuck@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca (Mary Margaret Schuck)
Organization: D.C.I.E.M., Toronto, Canada
Lines: 265

In article <28367@watmath.waterloo.edu> sccowan@watmsg.waterloo.edu (S. Crispin Cowan) writes:
>In article <1479@apss.apss.ab.ca> jhp@apss.ab.ca (Herb Presley, Emergency Planning Officer) writes:
><In article <3984@looking.on.ca>, brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) writes:
><> Bishop Murphy:  Shocking about Father Jones, isn't it?
><I was waiting for someone to comment in a sarcastic way on one of the greatest
><human tragedies of our time. Brad, you didn't disappoint me. Your comments are
><shallow, uncaring and show a callous disregard for the feelings of both 
><pedophile and victim.
>Fuck the pedophile; he lost all of my sympathy when he did the deed.
>On the other hand, Brad shows great concern for the victim, and
>wonders whether this wasn't done deliberately.

More to the point, why show concern for anyone when your
only purpose is to spread hate?

><> Smith: What can we do?  We can't excommunicate him.
><Your implied assumption that somehow the church is responsible for a priest's
><behavior simply perpetrates the myth which fuels pedophilic bahavior. The myth
><is: "I am not responsible for my behavior.  I am this way because of....(my
><parents, my situation, the anger others arouse in me, the sexual arousal in me
><WHICH I CAN'T CONTROL).....
>
Agreed.  The church would be (and is) the first to promote individual
responsibility for actions.

>The church specifically encourages the view that an individual is not
>responsable for their actions, so long as they seek forgiveness (via
>the church, of course).  The church may not think so, but I hold them
>responsable.

The idea behind confession is that when *you* think you've done something
wrong, you can go to confession and get official confirmation that you are
still a worthwhile human being.  Ever hear of penance?  That's the quaint
concept that even though God has forgiven you you still have to make some
form of reparation for what you've done.  I.e. you are responsible.  I've
never heard of anyone going to confession and being told, "Don't worry
about it; you're clean again."  And if you aren't sorry for what you've
done there is no point in going to confession.


>
><> Murphy: No, that would get in all the papers.  We'll do what we always do.
><The fact is neither the community, the family, the church, the school, the law
><has yet figured out how to deal with this problem.  It has always been with us
>
>Sure we have; put the pedophiles in jail, simple!

Good idea.  And lets put alcoholics in jail too, we don't want them out
there.  And all those people with nasty psychiatric disorders:  why waste
money on treatment when we have all those handy jails.  Doesn't jail make
life simple!


><it only surfaced as a high profile crime in the last decade or so.  Everybody
><wants to hide the problem.  Mainly because most of us don't know how to deal
><with our own feelings of sexual dominance over another human being and the
><surfacing of a problem close to us makes us ashamed.  So we cover our feelings
><up with anger, belligerence, flippancy, etc.  Why should the Roman Catholic
>Church be singled out simply because the media decides for our benefit that the
><crime in a religious context makes great headlines?

>Because the RC Church takes great pains to lecture the rest of society
>on proper moral conduct while protecting incredibly corrupt individuals,
>placed in a position of power and trust, within their organization
>while attempting to transfer blame to the victim.  Not even Clifford
>Olsen tried to claim that his victims asked for it.

1) the RC Church does not lecture "the rest of society".  It attempts to
provide guidance for those who follow its ways.  Where do you read these
lectures?  

2) How do you see the church protecting these "incredibly corrupt"
individuals (of which there are probably some in your family given their
prevalence in society)?  If it perceives problems within its family it
deals with the problem in the most appropriate way: internally.  The
problems between priests and children are dealt with by local bishops, the
families of the children and the priests concerned.  I don't see where the
Canadian general public should be involved.  If you hear that the manager
of a company took advantage of a low paid employee would you demand that it
be made public and that every manager of every company in Canada be
stigmatized because it was "one of them" that did it?  

3) How do you figure that the church is "attempting to transfer blame to
the victim"?  Every official pronouncement on the topic has expressed
regret, taken responsibility and extended sympathy to the victims.  We are
discussing the church, right?  I.e. official statements?  Or is every
statement made by every member of the church to be taken as gospel if you
don't like it?  ("Look Martha! A manager in the Kapuskasing branch said
that maybe the bimbo should have reported it!  The whole management's
corrupt! Lynch them all!")

>
><The fact of the matter is, several hundred arrests are made, charges laid and
><convictions obtained every year in every province. Only a small number involve
><the RC clergy.  Many of the people are in trust positions with children.  Yet
><they don't get national headline attention.  (No, I'm not a Roman Catholic).
>
><I would bet that the situations that are revealled every year only involve the
><tip of the iceberg.  Obviously I don't have many statistics.  But I do
><volunteer prison work and the numbers are far greater than any that get
><reported in the press!
>
>In my experience, children are generally treasured in any civilized
>western society.  That's what child-labour laws, pedophile laws,
>children's aid societies, etc. are all about.  I don't see any

The whole point is that in most places CHILDREN ARE NOT TREASURED.  Where
do you think those statistics come from?  One in four girls and one in 10
boys are molested before adulthood.  Most of those are from within their
immediate family.  No one is running around screaming that all those nice
daddies and mommies should be spread all over the newspapers.  For a start
it wouldn't do the kids any good.  Why is this different? Because the
children involved aren't related to the pedophiles.  Therefore we can
pretend all those others don't happen and concentrate on these few since
those nasty Roman Catholics make such nice scapegoats.  You know, this
isn't even unique to RC clergy!  Many other religions have had similar
findings lately, but there are usually fewer clergymen implicated (since
most churches are smaller) so we just concentrate on the big sensational
case.

><> Think about it.  What other reason can there be?  I mean 18 priests and
><> brothers in a province with 600,000 people?  18 gay, non-celibate, pedophile
><> RC priests & brothers?

Where do "gay" and "pedophile" come together?  A pedophile generally picks
whatever's handy, regardless of gender.  Most altar servers are male so
most priest pedophiles abuse boys.  In fact, the vast majority of all
pedophiles are heterosexual. That's why so many girls get it.

><I don't know how you expected the RC church to deal with it in any different
><way given the potentially explosive reaction from society.
>How about, excommunicate the priests responsible, turn them over to
>the police, hang them out to dry, and make sure they never get a
>chance to do it agian from a position of publicly recognized
>authority?  Nah, better cover it up instead, wouldn't want the pleebs
>to clue in that we can make mistakes.

If you'd start thinking and stop spouting erroneous misconceptions you
might get somewhere.

1) Excommunication is for people who have deliberately turned their back on
God.  Like Satanists.  Regular people are allowed to make mistakes
occasionally.  That doesn't mean they're encouraged to or treated leniently
when it happens, but the general idea is to allow everyone (yes, even
(gasp!) priests!) to be human.  Do you think all criminals should have
their citizenship revoked?  ("Look! Daddy molested Susy!  Kick him out of
the family and make him change his name! Forget counselling or treatment;
we wanna make him an EXAMPLE!!!")

2) Once again, do you hang your dirty laundry out to dry in public?
Everyone makes mistakes; publicizing them just makes it that much harder to
go on.  (Are you one of those charming people who would never hire a
formerly convicted criminal because they're "not fit to be in society?"
How long must they wait to be readmitted to society?  One year?  Ten? Three
generations?  What if it's your neighbor?  When he gets home from jail will
you post signs in the neighborhood to warn everyone that he's an evil
being?)

><                                                            Tell me Brad, do
><you have any dark secrets that would turn off your employer, friends, family,
><etc., if you were to reveal them? Ever have any 'unacceptable' thoughts?  Huh?
>
>Unnacceptable thoughts are completely different from unacceptable
>actions.  That's why civilized countries only have action-police (they
>bust you for bad things that you do) and the the RC church has
>thought-police (in the form of confessional priests) who make you feel
>guilty for having thoughts that the church finds 'unnacceptable',
>regardless of what the rest of society thinks of such thoughts, or the
>disgusting concept of thought-police.

Are you serious?  Do you know *anything* about Catholicism?
Go spout your ignorant hatred elsewhere.

><Here's my suggestions for dealing with this problem:
><1) Everybody in Canada, start to talk openly about this problem.  Let both 
><  victim and pedophile know that you are a caring, supportive person who will 
><  stick with them through all the trauma and hurt of a police investigation, a
><  trial and a possible jail sentence;
>RC Church authorities implementation of this:  cover up the crimes of
>the pedophile & ship him off to some place that has never heard of
>him (where he can do it again with impunity) and make the victim feel
>guilty for 'consenting' to the act at the age of seven.  Terrific
>support group.

(I'm beginning to feel like a broken record:  can't you at least come up
with something new?)

The Church has fully supported the law in all cases.  Many of the
pedophiles have gone to jail.  Most parents who molest their own 
children do not.  Removing the priest from a parish which has been
hurt and betrayed by him seems common sense to me.  Broadcasting
crimes for which he has already paid does not.  Further, ONE (can we
count that high?) member of the church authority suggested that
adolescents (not seven year olds) should have reported what was
happening.  The church does not agree with this position and 
understands the pressures which people in authority can bring to
bear on their subordinates.  Obviously this one priest does not
understand this.  Can you get it through your head that just
because a Catholic says it, that does not make it church policy?
Given your lack of general understanding of Catholicism, it is 
unlikely that you have any idea of the number of support and 
therapy measures which are available for disturbed clergy.
Do you really think the Church *wants* this to happen?


><2) Contact your local mental health authorities and see if you can get a
><   support group started for pedophiles where they can come and honestly talk
><   about their loneliness (a trademark of the behavior), their anxieties, and
><   how to find a way out of a behavior in which they feel trapped.  (You'll
><   likely only be able to deal with pedophiles who are the subject of a police
><   investigation because the current laws now make you liable to criminal
><   prosecution if you do not immediately report any suspected pedophilic
><   behavior to the police or child welfare authorities).
>This is a good idea.
I agree.


><3) Get a victim into therapy immediately, and go with them if necessary to
><   ensure that they have the proper support to deal with their hurt, and their
><   now problematic view of human relationships.  If not, this will cause them
><   great pain in later life when everything has cooled off and they are left
><   with the memories. In addition, the police and crown prosecutors will often
><   not be very helpful.  You have to remember that their job is to get a
><   conviction, not be supportive.  They may create immense pressure on the
><   victim to testify, and this will add to the trauma.
>So does pressure from a bishop telling the victim that it is his
>fault.
So does pressure from a mother telling a child that it's her imagination.
The fact is that there are many terrible pressures on a child that has been
abused.  The idea is to give treatment, not just keep repeating the wrongs
like a litany.

><4) Write to your MP and urge them to get the police and courts to back off a
><  little in their relentless pursuit of "justice". Not every situation has to
><  be handled by a jail sentence and the laws should allow judges a little more
><  leeway in how they can deal with this problem.  For example, if someone is
><  seeking counselling and help already, a jail sentence can often cause more
><  grief and pain to both the victim and the pedophile, particularly in family
><  situations.
>Bullshit.  Serious crimes like this do not deserve kid gloves.  The
>mindset of "he didn't really mean it, and he's getting help" lead to
>exactly the same problems that women face with regard to rape; the
>offender is treated kindly, and the victim is made to feel like they
>are on trial.  Instead of backing off on prosecuting these cases, they
>should be persued to the full extent of the law, or the problem will
>just persist and grow, as perpetraitors get the idea that a 'sincere'
>appology is a free ticket to another crack at the lads.

Throwing the perpetrator in jail just perpetuates the problem.  What good
does it do to throw an alcoholic in jail?  Sure he's a public nuisance, but
as soon as he gets out he'll repeat the offence.  In a real (i.e.
non-simplistic) world, the solution is to cure the offender, not just
punish him.  There's a big difference between "He didn't mean it and he's
getting help" and "It was a serious crime; lets see why it was committed
and ensure that he no longer feels the compulsion to commit one again."

>Login name:	sccowan			In real life: S. Crispin Cowan

	Mary Margaret.


____________________________________________________________________________
	My mailer hates everyone.  Try to deceive it if possible.
schuck@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca    {decvax,attcan,watmath...}!utzoo!dciem!schuck
____________________________________________________________________________