Newsgroups: can.general Path: utzoo!telly!evan From: evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch) Subject: Re: Scene at a Roman Catholic cathedral near you a few years ago. Message-ID: <619407349.7755@telly.on.ca> Organization: Telly Online, Brampton, Ontario References: <619057392.19843@telly.on.ca> <1482@apss.apss.ab.ca> Date: Fri, 18 Aug 89 01:35:48 GMT In article <1482@apss.apss.ab.ca> jhp@apss.ab.ca (Herb Presley, Emergency Planning Officer) writes: >In article <619057392.19843@telly.on.ca>, evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch) writes: >> >Your implied assumption that somehow the church is responsible for a priest's >> >behavior simply perpetrates the myth which fuels pedophilic bahavior. >> >> Church leaders are granted special standing in their community, in some >> cases wielding more power than politicians. And unlike any politician, >> they also are respected because of their ethical judgement. >So are parents. So are teachers. So are social workers. So are the police, >in fact. Parents, teachers, police officers or social workers are not spiritual leaders as a career. They don't go to theological schools, have people attend mass weekly to hear their sermons, get time on Vision TV or claim the one and only Truth. Further, the job of police is to enforce the (however motivated) laws made by others, not to apply their own judgement. Only the Clergy get to call themselves God's own ambassadors on Earth. I believe this in itself has a very strong connotation and can be quite intimidating. >When's the last time you saw an emu in the national >headlines? Or a parent? Or a teacher? Or a social worker? Or a cop? If a teacher was found to be having sex with a student, that teacher would be immediately booted and that teacher's career would be shot. Forever. AND it would attract plenty of attention, ESPECIALLY if the school board tried to cover it up or silently transfer the teacher to another school. Two Toronto policemen have been recently forced to resign over having sex with a woman while on duty. That made plenty of headlines. Don't know about emus. >> The Church has decreed that its priests are indeed morally superior to >> the common man, and are capable of such self control that they are > >DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF THAT DECREE? (Definition - Decree - Something WRITTEN >DOWN as a law, tradition or rule). They are allowed to take confession and determine penance. They are allowed to celebrate mass. They are the principles of Catholic schools. They are leaders of the Church and, as such, Men of God. They are considered morally superior in that they have a mandate to teach their morals to the masses, and even convert non-believers to those views. Every priest is a person but not every person may be a priest. About a half of the population is arbitrarily denied even the ability to try for the priesthood because of gender. >> expected to maintain the unnatural state of forced celibacy for the rest >> of their chuch careers. >Baloney says I. The priesthood is like any other vocation in one respect. You >can leave it if you so choose not to be celibate. But I don't HAVE to leave *any other* profession just because I choose not to be celebate. >> I was under the impression that there is still a kind of statutory rape >> law, that it is illegal to have sex with someone younger than N years >> regardless of the circumstances or consent. Certainly pornography > >Now isn't that interesting. The law! Well, there was a law against abortion >also until several months ago when the Supreme Court of Canada struck it down >and left the country in one mell of a hess regarding the issue. Your opinion, not The Only Truth (TM). There is a substantial number of people in this country who believe that not only did the Supreme Court action *clear up* a mess, but that no abortion law is even necessary. >The law, sir, >is not infallible. In fact, many times it is dead wrong! It is, however, better than anarchy. It is also better than submitting to the will of those who believe they are divinely inspired to tell us whether abortion (among other things) is right or wrong. >> 2) Because the Roman Catholic Church, more than other religions, >> believes that sexual union is only for the purpose of procreation, and >> still believes homosexuality (sodomy) to be a sin against God; > >Sorry, homosexuality and sodomy are not the same thing. You can have sodomy >between a male and a female. Homosexuality is a sin against your own life. A >sin in which you put your own life at risk, (and the live of others whom you >may never see, may never know). Long before AIDS the RC church would not allow gays to be priests. What kind of sin was being gay, before AIDS? >If we follow the thinking that has been going on in this discussion, LET'S PUT >GAYS (who engage in sexual activity) IN JAIL! I'm sure someone could find a quote in the Bible to justify this. The Church certainly would throw in jail mothers who induce abortions. After all, the RC Church does have a history in which the mere 'crime' of blasphemy could be punished by death... >> 3) Because the Roman Catholic Church, more than any other religion, >> loves to instruct the world on such proper sexual conduct; >Yes, and from what I see of the world's current sexual conduct, it appears that >nobody has been listening anyhow, so why make such a big deal about it? The whole point of this thread is that one better have one's own house in order before telling everyone The Right Way. >> In this situation, it is even more than that. It is a matter of >> corruption. Not financial, but moral corruption of leaders who are given >> special responsibility, such as running schools, because of >> their perceived moral judgement. >A John Bircher. Gawd, I thought you guys were extinct now. Pardon? How about logic rather than insults... >> If so many of the leaders can crack, how are laypeople expected to >> follow the discipline, or even believe it useful? If anything, the >> church's lack of response to this issue may *hurt* its moral credibility >> in the future when dealing with unrelated issues like abortion. > >In fact, what has happened makes me believe in the church even more! It's >filled with HUMAN BEANS! Struggling, hurting, masses of humanity. ...that just happen to believe that their views on creation, abortion, birth control, education, etc. should be the policies of society at large, whether or not the majority agrees with them. (I.E. if you don't believe in abortion, don't have any. But don't force me to agree with you by making laws limiting MY choice...) >Just the >people who belong there! Mind you, there are those who don't belong there - >these are the self-righteous, the strong, those "who have no need of a >physician..." Like us, y'know! :-) I take this without sarcasm. >> Pete Rose also has a sickness, which and has (in the minds of some) >> tarnished the reputation of his entire sport. That hasn't kept the Johnny >> Carsons of the world from getting lots of monologue mileage out of it.[ >Oh yeah. The Reverend Jimmy Carson. Pastor of the late night television >evangelists. Listen to him! He'll not lead you astray. Two broken marriages >and earnings in the six figure range. But he speaks the truth! The church >doesn't, but HE IS INFALLIBLE! Wow! What point are you making? I was referring to your claim that the Church was being singled out as the brunt of cruel jokes. >If you don't like the church, why do you care? Because my tax dollars are paying for church-run schools and hospitals, operated based on morals I may not agree with; Because the airwaves are bombarded with preachers telling me how to run my life and those of others; Because in day-to-day life, I cannot avoid the church or its value system. >Don't you think they have >humiliated themselves also, just a little bit? Not enough to resign. Have they no sense of pride? >Don't you think that if they could stop their bahavior, they would? If they had any sense of dignity they would withdraw from similar positions of authority. Or the Church should deny such authority until they have received adequate therapy. >Go in and meet some of the inmates. In fact, go into the >protective custody unit. MAYBE YOU'LL MEET A SEX OFFENDER! Sit down and talk >to him/her. The first thing that will strike you is the fact they are human! I think there are those who believe that one who has victimized a child in they way that they have is less than human. The damage they have done is worse than a vandal, and as bad as any drug pusher. In my limited study of history I learned that the Catholic Church has been known for its intolerance of conflicting ideologies (inquisitions, Crusades, pogroms, complacency during the Holocaust, etc.) Even in modern times, the Church certainly doesn't appear very tolerant of other views. Given its wishes, I'm sure the Church would have Henry Morgentaler in jail by now. Now members of the clergy are on the receiving end, we're expected to show compassion. Hmmm. -- Evan Leibovitch, SA, Telly Online, located in beautiful Brampton, Ontario evan@telly.on.ca / uunet!attcan!telly!evan / Director & editor, /usr/group/cdn Canadian Football League: 8 teams, two with the same name.