Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!wuarchive!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!lll-winken!ames!ucsd!orion.cf.uci.edu!uci-ics!ucla-cs!henry.jpl.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!aero!amadeus@walt.cc.utexas.edu From: amadeus@walt.cc.utexas.edu (Susan Harwood) Newsgroups: soc.feminism Subject: Re: sex/gender Message-ID: <17198@ut-emx.UUCP> Date: 16 Aug 89 19:48:18 GMT References: <34104@spock.uucp> Sender: news@aerospace.aero.org Reply-To: elroy!ames!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!walt.cc.utexas.edu!amadeus (Susan Harwood) Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Lines: 99 Approved: nadel@aerospace.aero.org Status: R In article <34104@spock.uucp> EBay.SUN.COM!spock!drh writes: >I was taught (both verbally and by actions) never to hit a female, because >females were supposed to be the "weaker" sex. I noticed that my sisters >and most females were in fact about half my size, and that even the athletic >females were not only physically weaker than me, but my smaller male friends >(this seems to be a fact of life, and to date I've observed a tiny percentage >of woman who were stronger than myself, or many, many average guys (5'9"-6'2"; >150 lbs - 210 lbs) also I've noticed that a vast majority of the girls/women >I've seen particpate in survival oriented athletic activities weren't as >agressive as the male counterparts. You realize of course a lot of this may have to do with environment and how these people were reared... and size and strength are not necessarily related. >Some examples: >I didn't make the fencing team in high school I was the sixth best male, but >could easily out fence the females scoring almost 100% of the points, This one I took exception to because I fence. I'm a decent fencer; it's a hobby for me so of course I'm not necessarily as intense as the people who compete. But in our fencing department there are men and women I can beat, just as there are men and women who can leave me in the dirt. I haven't seen a correlation *except* that when I began fencing I was more intimidated by male opponents. Once I got going, however, I just started taking the same attitude with everyone, male or female. I fence foil because I dislike sabre. But I don't think that has to do with being female, it's just me. I have a female friend who's a lethal sabre fencer. Ouch! >Running isn't necessarily a survival oriented sport. Swimming isn't necessarily either, is it? :-) >Now before I get flamed to a black mass of xy chromosomes, Sorry, but I wouldn't use "black" and "mass" together like that; it's funny. >They [women] could learn martial arts if they spent years of >diligent effort, (although this is rarely the case, at least in the >martial arts studios I've stumbled onto, by chance). Ummm, where do you live, anyway? I know lots of women into martial arts and at least one black belt... >They could also learn to shoot guns, but once again you don't see >many women at >rifle/pistol ranges. This is very true. I know this because my father and my uncle taught me to shoot when I was 10, and I knew how to handle guns long before that. But, because of the prevalent male attitude about size and strength and just about women in general (I'm 5'5 1/2"; I weigh about 113 and I do look a bit on the fragile side), I have been insulted inadvertently more times than I could ever recount. >I've tried to convince many, many females that I have loved (my >sisters, women friends, lovers) to learn martial arts, or to buy a >gun. Every single one said she could never do the latter, and not a >one has done the former. Is my lifetime experience somehow a >coincidence? Could be. Have you ever tried to convince any males you cared about to learn martial arts or to buy a gun? Maybe they might not want to, just as these women seem not to. Of course, if you're already convinced that these men don't need these warnings (because either they don't need them or they already have these things), then I can see why it hasn't come up. >Do you think it's ALL chauvinism? Actually, yes, but chauvinism so old and so deeply ingrained that it's difficult to take people to task for certain aspects of it. >I envy most womens ability to stay in touch with their emotions (this is another "taught" behavior, I imagine). Yppr. Just like it's not ladylike to fight, real men don't cry (unless they're Alan Alda). >What I'm talking about is what would happen if we lost our police >state, i.e. government, and we had to make do with our >physical prowess. Then we'd all be in trouble. >I'd like to see more women building up their strength, and self >defense skills. It could happen, on a personal level in any given >night in the city. I'd like to see more *people* doing this, male and female, because you're right. It could happen to any one of us. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ =========================================== ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Susan L. Cecelia Harwood *<:-) amadeus@walt.cc.utexas.edu The University of Texas @Austin "...suspended in gaffa..." --Kate Bush ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ =========================================== ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~