Path: utzoo!utgpu!watmath!att!dptg!rutgers!sun-barr!texsun!playroom!pitstop!lwake From: lwake@pitstop.West.Sun.COM (Larry Wake) Newsgroups: comp.unix.wizards Subject: Re: Workstation pricing, Sun vs. ISA Message-ID: <836@pitstop.West.Sun.COM> Date: 30 Aug 89 23:58:31 GMT References: <1989Aug30.204441.3294@algor2.algorists.com> Reply-To: lwake@sun.com (Larry Wake) Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. Lines: 111 In article <1989Aug30.204441.3294@algor2.algorists.com> jeffrey@algor2.UUCP (Jeffrey Kegler) attempts to compare apples... er, attempts to price compare a Sun 386i vs. a generic 386 box. First off, as Mr. Kegler himself states, using the 386i as a comparision box for a UNIX-only environment is less than fair. He asks: >As I understand it, the 386i will not boot >DOS, and so one wonders why bother with an 80386? It won't boot DOS as its native-mode operating system (using the term loosely), but it will boot DOS under UNIX and run DOS applications (lots of them, at the same time) without the overhead of emulating an Intel CPU on a foreign architecture. If you don't need this, you probably shouldn't get a 386i. If you do need it, you should add the cost of a DOS/UNIX environment to your generic system's price list. It should be fully integrated with your windowing system (X, in the system you outlined), to be fairly compared to the 386i. >A major advantage >of the ISA architecture is a ready resale market to power hungry DOS >users Yes, but what are they going to do with the other stuff you bought, that doesn't really work too well under DOS? The resale value of a Sun should not be underestimated -- that is, if you sell it to someone who wants a Sun, and not just a fast DOS box. If they want a DOS box, with none of the "Sun-ness" the 386i offers, then yes, a used boxhouse '386 would be a better deal. But they probably don't want to buy all that other stuff. >If you are getting a Sun, >you might as well get a nice 68000 or SPARC based box. So, why did you... never mind. The bottom line here is yes, with a little effort you can put together a '386 system that has most of the same bits as a Sun, and it'll come out a little cheaper. Even in your comparision, which by your admission chose a slightly more expensive Sun with no effort to mitigate the price, against a system that I would imagine took a bit of shopping around to assemble (by either you or the integrator who is packaging it), the difference is not tremendous. And... Not knowing the details of the UNIX that is packaged with it, I don't know if these are included, but I didn't see mention of NFS/ONC support, DOS Windows, a window-based source-level debugger, and a few other things that are bundled with the Sun; adding these to your list would bring the two prices yet closer. You can also get X for free for the Sun, *or* you can choose to use SunView, which although it isn't X, is a rather nice windowing system that a lot of people prefer to use. The choice is there. In future releases of the operating system, X11, NeWS, and a SunView-compatible interface will be provided as an integrated package. This is of significant value, at least to me. You'd also still be missing (uh oh, here it comes...) Sun. We may not be perfect, but we're here...rather than buying off-the-shelf pieces, you're buying a system that was designed from the bottom up to work as a unit. When you buy off-the-shelf application software for a Sun, you know (ideally -- see below) you won't have to worry if it will work with *this* display, *that* mouse, or *the other* memory board. Yes, there are still going to be problems with a product line as diverse as Sun, but these are problems that *our* staff has to work to solve, rather than yours. I'm not bringing this up to say how great Sun is, or to set people up to ask "then why doesn't Frobozz Version 2.1 work on a GX board yet?", but to point out that there is a significant piece of added value that comes with every Sun that you may not think about when you're comparing systems. Remember when I said "off-the-shelf software" up there? How much "plug 'n' play" software is there for a generic '386 UNIX box? Sun's Catalyst program offers hundreds, if not thousands, of applications by now, not to mention the large amount of Sun-specific freeware available off the net. We also provide support for third-party developers to guarantee that new software continues to appear in the future. The intent of your entries, although muted a bit as you've gone along, seems to have started as a complaint that Sun is ripping people off by charging "so much more" for systems, as compared to what Joe's Garage Boxhouse and Camera Shop charges. I don't believe that's true (else I wouldn't have come to work for Sun). The truth is closer to: If you want a generic box, and are willing to cope with the rough edges of a pieces-parts system and the lack of off-the-shelf software or company support, it's the right move for you. If you'd prefer to spend a little more money, and buy an integrated system with a lot more performance, a lot more expandability, and an upgrade path other than "sell it and buy another," take a look at Sun. I don't expect this will sway you too much, as your intent seems to be to prove that yes, a comparable machine can be bought for a lower price, but I think if you take a look, you'll see the price differential is not that great, and may in fact be non-existent, especially if you had chosen a Sparc 1 as a comparison machine rather than the 386i. I also think you've already seen that the difference is certainly nowhere near what you had originally thought it would be, even ignoring the points I've raised above. (You've also seen that our price list isn't really secret, that there is a *lot* of third party hardware available, and that Suns do have a resale market and an upgrade path. I'll also mention that we *do* offer a highres [1600x1280] monochrome screen, and that from one of our third party vendors you can even get a four megapixel 28" diagonal color screen that's fully compatible with our standard graphics libraries -- that is, all correctly written applications will work on it with no modification.) Larry Wake The Proverbial Biased Onlooker Speaking about, but not for, Sun.