Path: utzoo!attcan!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: btong@cipc1.dayton.ncr.com (Bonnie Tong) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Husband as leader in marriage Message-ID: Date: 26 Aug 89 22:00:36 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Lines: 84 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article palosaari@tiger.oxy.edu (Jedidiah Jon Palosaari) writes: >I'm currently engaged in a discussion over whether or not the man should >make the crucial desicians in a Christian marriage when there can be no agreement. ^^^^ Not if his spelling is like yours! :-) Okay, mister, before I go off in a roaring flame, I want to know if this is for real.(?) Since you did not indicate that you were "just kidding", I am assuming that you meant what you said. If so, I've got news for you - I am a woman and I have only one Lord and Master! Crucial decisions? And you would be so cruel as to leave her out of that decision? No agreement? So what you are saying is that if a man is so stubborn that he cannot bend to see his wife's viewpoint (or he just is of the opinion that she has no brains :-( ) it is okay and "backed by God" for him to just totally ignore her feelings? I think not! (NOTE: I know that it may be the wife who is stubborn, so don't say it.) The moderator of this group did a fine job in his response. *I* could see that he was trying to say that in a Christian marriage BOTH halves need to "submit" to each other for the good of the marriage. (I absolutely hate the word "submit" when talking about a wife and husband! I will not "submit" to any man, only to God. ) >My opponent argues that those passages stating that the wife >should obey the husband were made for a certain church and a certain time >only. Could anyone point me to some relavent passages on the subject. >(I want to learn the truth- not just support my own view, so passages >stating there should be equal descision making or that there are certain >passages for certain times and people would be helpful too.) In one sentence you are talking about opposition and argument. Then in the next you say that you want relevant passages on the subject so that you might learn the truth? Who's truth? {from the moderator...} >[There are certainly passages saying that in Christ there is no male >or female, e.g. Gal 3:28. Typical passages talking about wives >submitting to the husband are Eph 5:22 ff. and I Pet 3:1. It's a bit >hard to argue that the authors originally meant these as advice for a >specific church. Particularly Eph seems clearly to be a presentation >of the author's general concept of marriage. About the best you can ^^^Bravo! The *author's* concept... >do if you want to adopt a different view is to say that the most >general principle is Eph 5:21: Be subject to one another. One could ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Agreed! >argue that the wife's submission to the husband is simply one example >of this, but that fully carrying out the concept of mutual dependency >requires the husband to be subject to the wife as well. ^^^^^^^^Thank you! {moderator continues...} >One thing however is clearly not permissible. That is to abandon the >concept of submission in marriage, and to accept the all too common >situation where husband and wife really want to continue to be >autonomous. If you are going to adopt a symmetrical view, you should >do it not by abandoning the idea that the wife submits to the husband, >but by adding the idea that the husband also submits equally to the >wife. This last statement by the group's moderator says a lot. You would not only be adding an idea to your point of view, but actually adding to the spiritual well being of your life. I think God would approve. Well, people, I have only posted/replied to this group once before. I like to read it and learn from it. It seems to me, however, that women are not given fair time here - or maybe they just don't post. Jedidiah, I know you probably didn't mean to, but you hurt my feelings. Try to see things from a woman's perspective. To me, what you said appeared to be thoughtless and cold-hearted. Did you think that a woman reading that stuff wouldn't mind? Well, this woman was very upset. It sometimes makes you wonder about being a Christian. I don't think God is a sexist God. (I think he loves the person, not the gender.) I do, however, see a lot of men that claim to be God fearing who are (sexist). I hope that you are not like that. Bonnie Tong "Lord, make my words sweet and tender Bonnie.Tong@Dayton.NCR.COM today, for tomorrow I may have to ...!uunet!ncrlnk!cipc1!btong eat them." --unknown