Path: utzoo!attcan!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: bnr-fos!bmers58!davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Husband as leader in marriage Message-ID: Date: 1 Sep 89 06:54:51 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada Lines: 155 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article palosaari@tiger.oxy.edu (Jedidiah Jon Palosaari) writes: >I'm currently engaged in a discussion over whether or not the man should >make the crucial desicians in a Christian marriage when there can be no >agreement. My opponent argues that those passages stating that the wife >should obey the husband were made for a certain church and a certain time >only. Could anyone point me to some relavent passages on the subject. 2 Timothy 3:16 says "All scripture {is} given by inspiration of God, and {is} profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:". If we believe this Scripture then we cannot accept the argument that we may ignore some Scriptures simply because we believe they were meant for a specific church at a specific time in its history. While some particular historical event may have stimulated Paul's writing of a given passage, the Bible says rather emphatically of itself that each and every Scripture is meant for general consumption. The best way to obtain an answer to your question is, I believe, to look at one of the reasons the God instituted marriage. Ephesians 5:31-32 says "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.". Our marriages are, among other things, an earthly picture of the ultimate marriage between Christ (the husband) and His Church (the wife). In case there is any doubt that Christ is the husband and that we believers are the wife, Ephesians 5:25 commands "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;", and Ephesians 5:24 says "Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so {let} the wives {be} to their own husbands in every thing.". Given that our marriages are to depict the one and only eternal marriage, that between Christ and His Church, we must understand that God commands us to pattern ours after His. The Church must submit to Christ. Christ is the winner when it comes to a disagreement in principle. This, therefore, must be what God would like us to show the world as we live out our marriages. This may be an unpopular point of view these days, but strict obedience to God's commandments usually is. Many women find it difficult to accept the fact that God expects them to totally submit to their husbands, recognizing them as the undisputed head of the household. They must recognize that God has given a directive that is just as hard to their husbands. If a husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the Church, then, strictly speaking, a husband must meekly and lovingly tolerate all those characteristics of his wife that he really cannot stand, he must make each and every decision in such a way that it benefits her and has absolutely no elements of self interest, and he must always be looking for ways to deny his own interests in favour of hers. If every husband would run his household according to this kind of methodology then there is no woman at all who would have any trouble fully submitting to her husband. The only reason that most of our marriages are abismal failures is because either or both partners let self-interest get in the way of true obedience to what God has really commanded. A note to husbands with respect to God's commandments pertaining to how we are to treat our wives. The fact that our wives must be submissive to us does not mean that they should ever have to live in fear of sexual abuse. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-5 says "For this is the will of God, {even} your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:". We are not to treat, or even think of, our wives lustfully. We are to esteem them, and treat them, as our most honourable possession. They are to be more important to us than anything else save God Himself. Even things like the all too common night out with the boys, sports events, and the evening news, must never, and I really mean never, get between us and our wives. Even our own desire for sexual gratification must never be in control of how we treat our wives. God commands, with respect to sexual relations, that a husband's only goal is to be his wife's sexual satisfaction, and that a wife's only goal is to be her husband's sexual satisfaction. 1 Corinthians 7:4 says "The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.". Various people have posted comments regarding the fact that a marriage must at all times be based on mutual decision making, and that action ought not be taken if an agreement cannot be reached. While this would be true in a sinless environment, we must never lose sight of the fact that both partners in this supposedly ideal human marriage are still subject to the whims of the sinful bodies which they still possess. While it is also true that they have, in the eyes of God, become not only one household, but also one flesh, the fact that this single body is still under the control of two independent human minds (which hopefully will become more and more alike as time goes on) cannot be ignored. There may be many issues whose resolutions can wait for unanimity, but there are also those which cannot. If a child has, for example, committed some sort of serious infraction, and if both parents of that child cannot agree on which form of discipline is to be used, it would be doing that child a tremendous disservice to defer discipline for a week or so while the whole issue is debated. At such times it is necessary for the impass to be broken, and what better and more impartial way to break the impass than to fall back on the advice of God Himself. I would think that this would actually give a wife a high degree of comfort, as her husband, and not she herself, is without a doubt, by the commandment of God, fully responsible for those decisions which must be made in haste. There has been a posting from a woman who says that she will never submit to any man because she has only one lord, God, to whom she will submit. I would like to suggest to her that she is not fully submitting to her Lord, God, if there is at least one of His commandments which she is intentionally not going to obey. Permit me to requote Ephesians 5:24 which says "Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so {let} the wives {be} to their own husbands in every thing.". Note that she need not submit to just any man, just to her own husband, and that this submission to her own husband must be complete. Even though we may not always understand why God gives us the various commandments which He has given us, we must obey them, trusting that they are for the best over the long-term. In this case, God has been gracious enough to tell us exactly why He has given wives this particular commandment. 1 Peter 3:1-4 says "Likewise, ye wives, {be} in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; While they behold your chaste conversation {coupled} with fear. Whose adorning let it not be that outward {adorning} of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But {let it be} the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, {even the ornament} of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.". A Christian wife with an unsaved husband is very likely being subjected, by him, to all sorts of physical and/or emotional abuse. He is probably also in no way interested in reading the Bible that she would like so much for him to read. God is telling her that one of the ways in which she can contribute to her husband's potentially becoming saved is by her conduct, i.e. by being completely submissive to her husband, who will eventually have to ask himself what it is about his wife that is giving her the strength to put up with so much undeserved abuse that an average woman of the world would never tolerate. If a wife truly loves her husband then would she not trade a few years of earthly abuse at his hands for his not having to endure hell forever later? Please forgive me if this seems like a rather nasty question, and do not interpret my willingness to be extremely direct as having any either nasty or judgemental intent. Each and every Christian who is married to a non-Christian really ought to seriously ask himself if he really and truly loves his spouse according to the definition of love that can be found in 1 Corinthians 13:1-7, or if he actually loves himself and his perceived rights to comforts more, even though no Scripture in the entire Bible has ever entitled him to any. Is he trying to take matters into his own hands, or is he really trusting in God's promise in Romans 8:28 which says "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to {his} purpose."? In a more global statement, but one which also applies to the marriage relationship, 1 Peter 2:20 asks a very good question. It says "For what glory {is it}, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer {for it}, ye take it patiently, this {is} acceptable with God.". Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 856 Grenon Avenue Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2B 6G3