Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!wuarchive!mailrus!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: bnr-fos!bmers58!davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Who do you say Christ is? (and other questions) Message-ID: Date: 11 Sep 89 06:26:50 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada Lines: 153 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article kodak!isctsse!mcmahon@cs.rochester.edu (Brendan McMahon) writes: >The main thing that she is struggling with is the Divinity of Jesus. >The JW's say that Jesus is not Divine, not God, not worth of worship, because hewas just a man on this earth and is just a spirit higher than the angles now. You have raised a number of questions that may be a bit difficult to deal with via postings, but I'll give it a try. You asked about the Scripture where Jesus asked why the rich young ruler called Him good. In Mark 10:17-18, for example, we read "And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? {there is} none good but one, {that is}, God.". Note that Jesus did not say that He Himself was not good; He merely stated the fact that the only good one was God. This can in no way be taken to mean that Jesus was denying His diety. The man who came running to Him thought of Him as just some really great teacher. As we know from the next few verses he also fervently affirmed that he felt that he himself had led quite a good life morally. Jesus, knowing that the man did not recognize Him as God, answered him in a way that showed him that human efforts are not good enough. He effectively said that if we only think of Him as a man then we had better not apply the adjective "good" to Him because the only one to whom we may apply that adjective is God Himself. With this statement He was telling the man that he also ought not to consider himself to be good. You asked how to explain statements of Jesus implying that His Father was greater than He. In John 14:28, for example, we read "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come {again} unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.". The Scripture which best explains this apparent contradiction is Philippians 2:6-8 which says "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.". In order to live among us He became like us. John 17:5 tells us that He did this by emptying Himself of all of His glory. In this temporal state the Father, who was still in HIs full glory, was greater than Jesus. This state lasted only until His resurrection, and did not exist before His conception. Philippians 2:9-11 continues "Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of {things} in heaven, and {things} in earth, and {things} under the earth; And {that} every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ {is} Lord, to the glory of God the Father.". You raised the issue of what exactly Jesus is right now. The Scriptures teach that, even now, in addition to being God, He is also still a man. 1 Timothy 2:5 says "For {there is} one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;". Now here are some proofs that Jesus is God. In Isaiah 42:8 God declares "I {am} the LORD: that {is} my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.". In John 17:5 Jesus prays "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.". If God will not give His glory to another, and if Jesus tells us that He not only had God's glory before but also expected to receive it again, then He must be God or the Scriptures will not harmonize. In Isaiah 43:11 God declares "I, {even} I, {am} the LORD; and beside me {there is} no saviour.". Speaking of Jesus, Acts 4:12 informs us "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.". If God is the only saviour, and if Jesus is the only name under heaven by which we must be saved, then Jesus must be God or these Scriptures will not harmonize. Hebrews 1:8-12 says "But unto the Son {he saith}, Thy throne, O God, {is} for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness {is} the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, {even} thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.". In this Scripture the Father calls His Son God twice and Lord once. Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.". Speaking of Jesus, Colossians 1:16 says "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether {they be} thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:". If God created the heavens and the earth, and if Jesus created everything as well, then, again, He must be God. Note, too, that this latter Scripture tells us that Jesus created all thrones and power. If He were not God then who created God's throne and power? Speaking of Jesus, John 1:3 says "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.". We are not only told that Jesus made everything, but also that there is nothing that was made that He did not make. God is rather emphatically telling us that there is absolutely no such thing as something which was made which Jesus did not make. If Jesus were merely a created being then He would have to have been made. If this were true then He would have had to make Himself. This, of course, cannot be. Jesus must have existed forever in the passed. This is confirmed in Micah 5:2 where we read (concerning a prophesy of His birth) "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting.". Colossians 2:9 says, of Christ, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.". Note that this Scripture does not merely say "the fulness"; it says "all the fulness". The word "all", here, does not leave anything left over. The absolute completeness of whatever the Godhead is dwells in Christ. Probably the best proof of the trinity can be found in 1 John 5:7 which says "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.". There are those who claim that the phrase "are one" really means "are in agreement with one another". Note, however, that the Bible does not permit us to impose this misinterpretation. God, in His infinite wisdom, foreseeing that some would do this, immediately followed 1 John 5:7 with 1 John 5:8 which says "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.". God is clearly showing us that He will say "agree in one" if that is what He means, and that when He says "are one" He means exactly that. With this in mind, it might also be worth quoting Jesus in John 10:30 where He says "I and {my} Father are one.". Note that, if Jesus were not a man, then He would not be qualified to pay the price for the sins of man. Note also that were He not good He would have only paid the penalty for His own sins. Since God is the only one who is good, Jesus had to be God Himself. Your wife must understand that God is infinitely greater than we are. His frames of reference are spiritual whereas ours are physical. We may not use our inability to understand what He is and why He does what He does as an excuse to not believe what He tells us in His Word. If we could understand it then we would not be believing Him strictly by faith. Hebrews 11:1 tells us "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.". Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: {it is} the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.". Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 856 Grenon Avenue Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2B 6G3 [There is some uncertainty about the exact wording used by the "rich young ruler". In Mat 19:16ff, rather than calling Jesus good, he asked what good thing he needed to do. But whatever the exact wording, in all three accounts, it seems clear that the man was trying to find something he could do to merit salvation. Thus Jesus refused the question, pointing out that only God is truly good. All we can do is obey God's commands. But we cannot thereby hope to become "good". --clh]