Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: mlawless@ncrwic.wichita.ncr.com (Mike Lawless) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Vatican II (Latin Mass) Message-ID: Date: 11 Sep 89 06:27:16 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: NCR Corporation, Wichita, KS Lines: 44 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu One point I omitted in my previous treatise on Latin the the Liturgy: If I recall correctly, many of the objections raised by conservatives to the Novus Ordo Mass in English arise from the way the Latin version (the official standard) is translated into English (not unlike arguments that arise over biblical translation). Also, Joe Buehler's comments suggest that the Canon of the Tridentine Mass was dropped when the Novus Ordo mass was introduced. I have always thought that what we now know as Eucharistic Prayer #1 (aka the Roman Canon) was virtually identical to the Tridentine Mass Canon (although there are a couple of passages which may now be optionally shortened). Granted, it is not heard much anymore; mostly on special occasions. Also, I have read that the other current Eucharistic Prayers also have roots in the ancient church, but fell into disuse at some point, and were revived in the Novus Ordo; the prinicipal difference from the Tridentine Mass, as far as the Eucharistic Prayer is concerned, is that there is more than one to choose from. Of course, the Words of Institution during the actual consecration are virtually identical across all of them. The differences are in the prayers before and after the consecration. Joe laments a general perceieved loss of a "sense of the sacred" in the Mass. I must admit I have observed a bit of that myself. However, I have observed the opposite as well. A lot depends on local practice. Much of what one sees in various Catholic parishes these days is at best not a part of the official rubrics (such as the aforementioned hand-holding during the Lord's Prayer), and at worst banned by either the Vatican or the Bishop's conference, but done anyway (like the use of female altar servers, or the inappropriate use of lay Eucharistic Ministers, or unauthorized ad-libbing of the pre- scribed text of the Mass, or so-called "liturgical dance," or the use of invalid matter for the Blessed Sacrament (containing ingredients other than wheat flour and water), etc.). I can testify, however, that there still are Catholic parishes that approach the Liturgy with great reverence, and I am grateful that I belong to such a parish. On the other had, I could hardly wait for the Mass to be over when I visited a parish in Ft. Collins recently. About the best I could say about it was that it wasn't as bad as it could have been, based on what I have heard about. -- Mike Lawless, NCR E&M Wichita, Box 20 (316) 636-8666 (NCR: 654-8666) 3718 N. Rock Road, Wichita, KS 67226 Mike.Lawless@Wichita.NCR.COM {ece-csc,hubcap,gould,rtech}!ncrcae!ncrwic!Mike.Lawless {sdcsvax,cbatt,dcdwest,nosc.ARPA}!ncr-sd!ncrwic!Mike.Lawless