Path: utzoo!attcan!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: jhpb@lancia.att.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Protestantism as Church Message-ID: Date: 11 Sep 89 06:52:54 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: AT&T Bell Labs (Liberty Corner) Lines: 103 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu I do not think that anyone's mind will necessarily be changed, but it is my hope that, as a result of these discussions, the Catholic religion will at least become better understood by many. To this end, I have a few comments on the summary that our moderator posted. I did think that Mac's original posting on this thread was very well written, and fair. summarize what I see as the outcome. Most (all?) of the Catholics there say that although the Catholics have a very different understanding of the nature of the visible Church, it is misleading to say that they claim to be the only true Church. Catholics believe that our Lord founded a visible organization to save souls. This organization is the Catholic Church. With its St. Peters and its Judases. In this sense, the Catholic Church is the only true Church. A big problem is perhaps that some members of the hierarchy are currently acting in a way that is suggestive of the idea that the Catholic religion is one among many. But, that idea has no part in Catholic theology. Certainly they do not claim to be the only valid route to Christ. In the sense that a person can save their soul without entering the Catholic Church, yes. But that's not the normal course of affairs, it's an extraordinary one. Our Lord did not and does not *positively* will that people should be separated from this Church. He does not want there to be a couple hundred different denominations. But He *permits* it for His own reasons. They certainly don't think that our sacraments are valid Catholic sacraments. However there now seems to be a recognition that they are Speaking in a general manner, the major Protestant denominations have two Sacraments that the Catholic Church considers valid -- Baptism and Holy Matrimony. (For those not familiar with the issues, Protestants and Catholics mean different things by the word "sacrament.") none the less carried out in response to Christ's commands. In a response to one of my postings, one Catholic said that although Protestant pastors are certainly not validly ordained according to the Catholic concept of ordination (which seems in some sense a simple observation of fact), he does believe that they are appointed to a special office in the Universal Church. I pushed to see whether any other Catholics wanted to disagree with this, and none did. This statement has more implications than it appears, because it effectively acknowledges the authority of Protestant churches to act on behalf of the Universal Church in ordaining (even though not in the Catholic sense) leaders. From the Catholic point of view, the Catholic hierarchy has been given full authority in things spiritual. How can non-Catholic ministers be partakers in this authority when they are not subject to, and even resist the Catholic hierarchy? Probably just about everyone in this group has ancestors throughout the Middle Ages who were Catholic. But the influence of the Reformation has progressed to such a point that talking about the Catholic religion is like talking in another, unknown language nowadays. From the Catholic point of view, the world is undergoing a disintegration over which recent Popes have wept, because the Catholic religion is losing its influence over men's hearts. It seems clear to me that Catholics are not yet quite ready to accept the model of the Catholic church as just one denomination among many. However they also recognize the role played by other denominations. My feeling is that this leaves them in a certain tension, with theory that has not entirely caught up with their de facto understanding. I don't think anyone believes that the current position is a stable one. I believe further development in their concept of the nature of the church is probably going to happen. There are in fact ongoing negotiations between the Catholics and members of various other Christian traditions. Perhaps few non-Catholics believe it, but one of the cardinal points of the Catholic religion is that defined doctrines can *never* be changed. To say that transubstantiation was a mistake, or that the Pope does not possess the gift of infallibility, can *never* happen. They've been decided. The Catholic Church can only change in certain ways. Our moderator seems to be suggesting changes that can't happen, from the Catholic point of view. I don't expect agreement that Catholic theology is right, but I wish everyone could at least understand what Catholicism is all about. Thinking something is Catholic that isn't is obviously not a real help to anyone. Joe [I believe that my summary of postings this summer on talk.religion.misc was correct. I had made some statement in that group based on an understanding of the Catholic position such as you present. I was roundly condemned by Catholics as engaging in uncharitable exaggeration of the Catholic position. Either I am badly misunderstanding what everyone is saying, or there are serious divisions within the Catholic community on these issues. I will withhold futher observations on this subject to see what other Catholics have to say about it. --clh]