Path: utzoo!attcan!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!cs.utexas.edu!sun-barr!ames!pasteur!ucbvax!HQAFSC-VAX.AF.MIL!mcdaniel%hqeis.decnet From: mcdaniel%hqeis.decnet@HQAFSC-VAX.AF.MIL ("HQEIS::MCDANIEL") Newsgroups: comp.protocols.tcp-ip Subject: RE: DOD ---> CMOT VERSUS SNMP Message-ID: <8909152045.AA04336@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> Date: 15 Sep 89 13:44:00 GMT Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU Organization: The Internet Lines: 493 Andrews AFB I N T E R O F F I C E M E M O R A N D U M Date: 15-Sep-1989 09:40am EST From: Mr Rodney A McDaniel MCDANIEL Dept: HQ AFSC/SCXP Tel No: 981-7909/AV 858 Owner: Mr Rodney A McDaniel * TO: _MAILER! ( _DDN[TCP-IP@NIC.DDN.MIL] ) Subject: RE: DOD ---> CMOT VERSUS SNMP I HAVE BEEN READING ALL THE VARIOUS REPLIES CONCERNING DOD CMOT VERSUS SNMP, HOWEVER I HAVE BEEN UNABLE TO FIND A DEFINITION FOR CMOT. WHAT DOES CMOT STAND FOR??? SECONDLY, DOES ANYONE HAVE OR KNOW THE OFFICIAL DOD POLICY CONCERNING THE CMOT REQUIREMENT?? PLEASE SITE A DIRECTIVE OR OFFICIAL PUBLICATION STATING CMOT WILL BE USED VICE SNMP FOR THE FUTURE. THIRDLY, I DON'T SEE A COMPLETE ANSWER TO THE FIRST MESSAGE CONCERNING DOD CMOT VERSUS SNMP. BOTH QUESTIONS HAVE BEEN SIDE-TRACKED BY THE OSI & ISO PROTOCOL ISSUES. ALSO DOES ANYONE ACTUALLY HAVE A CMOT IMPLEMENTATION, WHICH COULD REALLY ADVISE THE REST OF THE WORLD THE ADVANTAGES OR DRAWBACKS VERSUS THE EXISTING SNMP BEING USED??? ATTACHED IS A LISTING OF ALL THE REPLIES CONCERNING THIS SUBJECT, BUT HAVE THE ORIGINAL QUESTIONS REALLY BEEN ANSWERED AND PROVIDED THE NEEDED INFORMATION TO END THE CONTROVERSY ON CMOT AND SNMP. I HAVE ADDED A ASBESTOS AND THREE FOOT THICK STEEL WALLS AROUND MY EMAIL TERMINAL FOR ANY POSSIBLE FLAMING REPLIES OR LAUNCHING OF ANY MISSILES. SO REPLIES CAN BE SENT TO: MCDANIEL@HQAFSC-VAX.AF.MIL. RODNEY A. MCDANIEL AFSC DDN PROGRAM MANAGER PROGRAMS DIVISION Return-Path: Received: from NIC.DDN.MIL by hqafsc-vax.af.mil with SMTP ; Fri, 1 Sep 89 22:35:28 EDT Received: from ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU by NIC.DDN.MIL with TCP; Fri, 1 Sep 89 11:04:39 PDT Received: by ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (5.61/1.37) id AA13385; Fri, 1 Sep 89 10:35:18 -0700 Received: from USENET by ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU with netnews for tcp-ip@sri-nic.arpa (tcp-ip@sri-nic.arpa) (contact usenet@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU if you have questions) Date: 1 Sep 89 11:28:54 GMT From: mcsun!cernvax!cgch!wasc@uunet.uu.net (Armin Schweizer) Organization: WRZ, CIBA-GEIGY Ltd, Basel, Switzerland Subject: DoD --> CMOT and SNMP Message-Id: <873@cgch.UUCP> Sender: tcp-ip-relay@NIC.DDN.MIL To: tcp-ip@NIC.DDN.MIL From one of our network devices suppliers I got the information, that the DoD will request from all suppliers, that their respective products support CMOT. I did not hear the same for SNMP. Is this valid for SNMP too? What are the advantages of CMOT compared with SNMP, which make the DoD chose CMOT as their favorite network management vehicle? (Both, CMOT and SNMP use the same management information base!?) Who knows of or runs a CMOT implementation? I would like to have a direct contact. kind regards armin Armin R. Schweizer, CIBA-GEIGY AG, R1045.P.06, WRZ 4002 Basel / Switzerland phone: -41-61-697'79'46 Return-Path: Received: from NIC.DDN.MIL by hqafsc-vax.af.mil with SMTP ; Sat, 2 Sep 89 07:38:04 EDT Received: from ahwahnee.Stanford.EDU by NIC.DDN.MIL with TCP; Fri, 1 Sep 89 21:47:14 PDT Received: by ahwahnee.Stanford.EDU; Fri, 1 Sep 89 21:40:26 PDT Date: Fri, 1 Sep 89 21:40:26 PDT From: Dave Crocker Subject: Re: DoD --> CMOT and SNMP To: tcp-ip@nic.ddn.mil (Sorry. I intended to send this to the entire list. DHC) From dcrocker Fri Sep 1 21:28:53 1989 From: Dave Crocker Subject: Re: DoD --> CMOT and SNMP To: mcsun!cernvax!cgch!wasc@uunet.uu.net The Internet Activities Board has declared SNMP and CMOT to be co-equal standards. If effect, this means that they both have a stamp of approval from a significant "standards" body. (For the TCP/IP technology, the IAB fills the kind of role that ISO and CCITT and ECMA do in various parts of international communities. So much for the stamp of approval. Your question is more to the point and asks about actual support by vendors. (A nicely practical point to have concern for.) A number of companies are currently shipping products that use SNMP. Further, the NSFNet is managed using it. It is my impression that virtually all TCP/IP vendors have announced intent to support SNMP, if they are not already doing so. SNMP is unique to the TCP/IP community, although it uses the OSI ASN.1 encoding standard, for specifying the format of objects. CMOT is derived from the OSI CMOT standards effort, although I am told there are some differences. It is not clear to me that these differences are in the management protocol, itself, it does run over a modified stack of support protocols. Most significantly, is uses TCP or, perhaps, UDP, instead of an OSI transport. Hence, CMOT gets you closer to the future of OSI network management protocol details. However, there does not appear to be any vendor that currently ships CMOT and, therefore, there is no field (production network) experience using it. While a number of vendors have announced plans to support CMOT, I am not aware of any official, announced, delivery dates from these vendors. A further point about the recent decision to make SNMP and CMOT co-equal standards is that their use of the Management Information Base (MIB) was entirely de-coupled. While one should expect them to continue to use the original 100 variable, there having additional variable in common is problematic. At the least, such sharing should be expected to organic or accidental, rather than formally enforced. (That should be "expected to be organic..." I am on a thin wire with a poor editor.) As always, I trust that others will elaborate on, as well as correct, the above. Dive in! Dave Crocker Digital Equipment Corp. P.S. On review, I note that I did not respond to your query about federal requirements for CMOT support: There is strong governmental pressure for moving to OSI. This is embodied in the GOSIP document. In general, however, the requirements are careful to allow use of alternatives. Perhaps the most extreme way of viewing this is that a vendor certainly cannot consider ignoring the OSI CMOT. I am less clear about their ability to dodge CMOT (but am sure that someone out there in tcp-land will chime in to clarify, please?) Enough vendors have stated intent to support CMOT and enough are working on it, that I would expect it to start showing up in the future. P.P.S. I should use this opportunity to suggest a personal bias. It is NOT about which protocol I prefer. In fact, the brouhaha has, in my opinion, distracted us from worrying about how to manage multi-administration inter-networks. The chosen protocol is not irrelevant to this, but my suspicion is that we could start with a hopelessly incomplete one and still not know how to use it to its fullest. That is, our general understanding and pursuit of specifying and developing management (application) SERVICES has been quite limited and that we would do well to focus on MIB enhancement and specification of standard applications for management. (I.e., focus on the bottom and top of the management architecture.) D/ Return-Path: Received: from NIC.DDN.MIL by hqafsc-vax.af.mil with SMTP ; Wed, 6 Sep 89 22:22:50 EDT Received: from solbourne.nyser.net by NIC.DDN.MIL with TCP; Wed, 6 Sep 89 13:14:12 PDT Received: from localhost by solbourne.nyser.net (5.61/2.1-NYSERNet Research & Development) id AA06725; Wed, 6 Sep 89 16:07:48 -0400 Message-Id: <8909062007.AA06725@solbourne.nyser.net> To: mcsun!cernvax!cgch!wasc@uunet.uu.net (Armin Schweizer) Cc: tcp-ip@NIC.DDN.MIL Subject: Re: DoD --> CMOT and SNMP In-Reply-To: Your message of 01 Sep 89 11:28:54 +0000. <873@cgch.UUCP> Date: Wed, 06 Sep 89 16:07:46 -0400 From: "Marty Schoffstall" >From one of our network devices suppliers I got the information, that the DoD will request from all suppliers, that their respective products support CMOT. I did not hear the same for SNMP. Is this valid for SNMP too? On paper according to the RFC's they are both to be implemented by vnedors/suppliers. SNMP exists and this for the most part all TCP/IP vendors either ship SNMP in their product or are committed to in their next release. Marketing research orgnizations are responsible for exact numbers and analysis but I'm aware of 20-25 implementations that you can buy today. What are the advantages of CMOT compared with SNMP, which make the DoD chose CMOT as their favorite network management vehicle? (Both, CMOT and SNMP use the same management information base!?) CMOT's advantage is that it is theoretically aligned with the International Standard Organizations (ISO) program. Who knows of or runs a CMOT implementation? I would like to have a direct contact. To my knowledge no one runs this in an operational network and I haven't heard of the availablility of interoperable CMOT implementations. Marty Return-Path: Received: from NIC.DDN.MIL by hqafsc-vax.af.mil with SMTP ; Fri, 8 Sep 89 02:58:15 EDT Received: from ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU by NIC.DDN.MIL with TCP; Thu, 7 Sep 89 22:50:53 PDT Received: by ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (5.61/1.37) id AA08939; Thu, 7 Sep 89 22:42:26 -0700 Received: from USENET by ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU with netnews for tcp-ip@sri-nic.arpa (tcp-ip@sri-nic.arpa) (contact usenet@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU if you have questions) Date: 7 Sep 89 19:53:16 GMT From: fernwood!asylum!karl@apple.com (Karl Auerbach) Organization: The Asylum; Belmont, CA Subject: Re: DoD --> CMOT and SNMP Message-Id: <3853@asylum.SF.CA.US> References: <8909021142.AA08148@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> Sender: tcp-ip-relay@NIC.DDN.MIL To: tcp-ip@NIC.DDN.MIL In article <8909021142.AA08148@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> dcrocker@AHWAHNEE.STANFORD.EDU (Dave Crocker) writes: > SNMP is unique to the TCP/IP community, Not quite true -- one could use SNMP to manage an OSI network. --karl-- Return-Path: Received: from NIC.DDN.MIL by hqafsc-vax.af.mil with SMTP ; Fri, 8 Sep 89 23:37:26 EDT Received: from trwind.ind.TRW.COM by NIC.DDN.MIL with TCP; Thu, 7 Sep 89 10:39:27 PDT Received: by trwind.ind.TRW.COM (5.54/1.36) id AA04966; Thu, 7 Sep 89 10:38:59 PDT Date: Thu, 7 Sep 89 10:38:59 PDT From: robert@trwind.ind.trw.com (Robert W. Snyder) Message-Id: <8909071738.AA04966@trwind.ind.TRW.COM> To: mcsun!cernvax!cgch!wasc@uunet.uu.net, tcp-ip@nic.ddn.mil Subject: Re: DoD --> CMOT and SNMP Cc: robert@trwind.ind.TRW.COM >>From one of our network devices suppliers I got the information, >that the DoD will request from all suppliers, that their >respective products support CMOT. >I did not hear the same for SNMP. Is this valid for SNMP too? > A major Air Force contract (ULANA) is considering requiring either SNMP or CMOT implementations. There are two major contractors on this contract that are competing against one another. One contractor (TRW - us) is supporting SNMP, the other contractor (EDS teamed with 3com/bridge) is supporting CMOT. Since the government is considering requiring the code after the contract award, they were sort of forced into excepting both or getting into a hassle with one of the two vendors by giving the other an unfair advantage. Since this contract will be a buying vehicle DoD wide, it could by that this is what your vendor is talking about. I could give you a good breakdown of vendor support for both, but I dont think that would be fair since I do not represent a disinterested third party. For anyone interested in gathering this information. I suggest that they attend Interop in San Jose where all the vendors will be available to ask. If anyone is aware of anything else that might be influencing SNMP vs CMOT in the DOD world I would appreciate a reply Hope this helps Robert Snyder Disclaimer -- nobody claims dis, but me TRW Information Networks Division 23800 Hawthorne Blvd, Torrance CA 90505 USENET: trwind!robert INTERNET: robert@trwind.TRW.COM Phone 213-373-9161 Return-Path: Received: from NIC.DDN.MIL by hqafsc-vax.af.mil with SMTP ; Sun, 10 Sep 89 14:13:32 EDT Received: from talcott.harvard.edu by NIC.DDN.MIL with TCP; Sun, 10 Sep 89 09:52:05 PDT Received: from tien.Wellfleet.Com by wellfleet.com (3.2/SMI-3.2) id AA21304; Sun, 10 Sep 89 02:42:04 EDT Received: by tien.Wellfleet.Com (3.2/SMI-3.2) id AA04290; Sun, 10 Sep 89 02:40:49 EDT Date: Sun, 10 Sep 89 02:40:49 EDT From: Philip Prindeville Message-Id: <8909100640.AA04290@tien.Wellfleet.Com> To: fernwood!asylum!karl@apple.com Subject: Re: DoD --> CMOT and SNMP Cc: tcp-ip@nic.ddn.mil >> SNMP is unique to the TCP/IP community, > Not quite true -- one could use SNMP to manage an OSI network. Or DECnet, or XNS, or NetWare, or even a bridge (via SNMP over Ethernet). (We don't have bridge control yet). -Philip Return-Path: Received: from NIC.DDN.MIL by hqafsc-vax.af.mil with SMTP ; Mon, 11 Sep 89 10:12:06 EDT Received: from WLV.IMSD.CONTEL.COM by NIC.DDN.MIL with TCP; Mon, 11 Sep 89 05:41:00 PDT Received: by WLV.IMSD.CONTEL.COM (5.61/1.25) id AA24396; Mon, 11 Sep 89 05:35:14 -0700 Date: Mon, 11 Sep 89 05:35:14 -0700 From: mcc@WLV.IMSD.CONTEL.COM (Merton Campbell Crockett) Message-Id: <8909111235.AA24396@WLV.IMSD.CONTEL.COM> To: fernwood!asylum!karl@apple.com, pprindev@wellfleet.com Subject: Re: DoD --> CMOT and SNMP Cc: tcp-ip@nic.ddn.mil >>> SNMP is unique to the TCP/IP community, >> Not quite true -- one could use SNMP to manage an OSI network. Excuse me, I'm confused. I thought that OSI was a model which described the procedures (steps) to establish a connection and transfer data between two nodes on a network regardless of the protocol suite employed. The ISO IP/TPn and Internet TCP/IP protocol suites can be described by the model as can networks based on Digital's DCA protocol suite, IBM's BSC protocol, and the ISO 1745 protocol. Merton Return-Path: Received: from NIC.DDN.MIL by hqafsc-vax.af.mil with SMTP ; Mon, 11 Sep 89 14:24:26 EDT Received: from ASLAN.SAIC.COM by NIC.DDN.MIL with TCP; Mon, 11 Sep 89 08:15:42 PDT Received: by ASLAN.SAIC.COM (4.0/4.7) id AA04861; Mon, 11 Sep 89 11:12:43 EDT Date: Mon, 11 Sep 89 11:12:43 EDT From: Mike Little Message-Id: <8909111512.AA04861@ASLAN.SAIC.COM> To: mcc@WLV.IMSD.CONTEL.COM Subject: Re: DoD --> CMOT and SNMP Cc: tcp-ip@nic.ddn.mil >> Not quite true -- one could use SNMP to manage an OSI network. >Excuse me, I'm confused. I thought that OSI was a model which described >the procedures (steps) to establish a connection and transfer data between >two nodes on a network regardless of the protocol suite employed. The ISO >IP/TPn and Internet TCP/IP protocol suites can be described by the model >as can networks based on Digital's DCA protocol suite, IBM's BSC protocol, >and the ISO 1745 protocol. OSI is an architectural model (one of many and the one with the most name recognition). I believe the confusion arises here from what I find to be common misspeak - refering to OSI when one actually should refer to ISO. Particularly, the phrase "an OSI network" where the intention is "a network based upon the ISO protocol suite". This may not be exactly what Phillip intended (Phillip please interject if this is nowhere close), but looks like where the confusion is arising from. -Mike Return-Path: Received: from NIC.DDN.MIL by hqafsc-vax.af.mil with SMTP ; Mon, 11 Sep 89 19:28:38 EDT Received: from shadooby.cc.umich.edu by NIC.DDN.MIL with TCP; Mon, 11 Sep 89 15:37:32 PDT Received: from ummts.cc.umich.edu by shadooby.cc.umich.edu (5.61/1.0) id AA01459; Mon, 11 Sep 89 18:35:22 -0400 Date: Mon, 11 Sep 89 18:34:52 EDT From: Dave_Katz@um.cc.umich.edu To: tcp-ip@NIC.DDN.MIL Message-Id: <4865673@um.cc.umich.edu> Subject: Re: DoD --> CMOT and SNMP >name recognition). I believe the confusion arises here from what I >find to be common misspeak - refering to OSI when one actually should >refer to ISO. Particularly, the phrase "an OSI network" where the >intention is "a network based upon the ISO protocol suite". This may not I don't believe that the term "OSI network" is incorrect. There are numerous protocols with ISO standards numbers, but only a subset of those are protocols intended to support the OSI service definitions of particular layers. For example, the official title of ISO 8473, commonly known as "ISO IP", is "Protocol for providing the connectionless mode network service" (where said service is defined by the OSI network service definition). For what it's worth, in my experience folks around the standards community commonly refer to these things as "OSI protocols" and "OSI networks." [cue the sound of a hair splitting] Return-Path: Received: from NIC.DDN.MIL by hqafsc-vax.af.mil with SMTP ; Mon, 11 Sep 89 21:17:50 EDT Received: from talcott.harvard.edu by NIC.DDN.MIL with TCP; Mon, 11 Sep 89 16:56:04 PDT Received: from tien.Wellfleet.Com by wellfleet.com (3.2/SMI-3.2) id AA25964; Mon, 11 Sep 89 19:36:48 EDT Received: by tien.Wellfleet.Com (3.2/SMI-3.2) id AA11964; Mon, 11 Sep 89 19:35:30 EDT Date: Mon, 11 Sep 89 19:35:30 EDT From: Philip Prindeville Message-Id: <8909112335.AA11964@tien.Wellfleet.Com> To: little@SAIC.COM, mcc@WLV.IMSD.CONTEL.COM Subject: Re: DoD --> CMOT and SNMP Cc: tcp-ip@nic.ddn.mil I don't think I'm the one who originally mentioned ISO, though Mike is correct about the loose general use of ISO vs OSI. Since ISO seems to be the only stack that is strictly compliant (complacent?) with the 7 layer model, most people mix the two. I believe I only mentioned XNS and DECnet. Karl Auerbach originally threw out OSI [sic]. I assumed that Karl was referring to ISO 8473 (CLNS), etc. Did I misunderstand? -Philip P.S. Merton: Did you switch employers recently? Return-Path: Received: from NIC.DDN.MIL by hqafsc-vax.af.mil with SMTP ; Tue, 12 Sep 89 12:11:22 EDT Received: from WLV.IMSD.CONTEL.COM by NIC.DDN.MIL with TCP; Tue, 12 Sep 89 05:56:01 PDT Received: by WLV.IMSD.CONTEL.COM (5.61/1.25) id AA26604; Tue, 12 Sep 89 05:53:47 -0700 Date: Tue, 12 Sep 89 05:53:47 -0700 From: mcc@WLV.IMSD.CONTEL.COM (Merton Campbell Crockett) Message-Id: <8909121253.AA26604@WLV.IMSD.CONTEL.COM> To: little@SAIC.COM, mcc@WLV.IMSD.CONTEL.COM, pprindev@wellfleet.com Subject: Re: DoD --> CMOT and SNMP Cc: tcp-ip@nic.ddn.mil Over the past year, I've noticed the more frequent use of OSI in briefings and publications to refer to the ISO suite of protocols. I was beginning to wonder if while mucking about with AUTODIN, IDHS, and a host of other lesser known networks I had missed something. Merton P.S. Phil: I'm still at the same stand. Since Bunker Ramo was formed by Martin and Ramo Woolridge, we've been Allied, Eaton, and Contel. The last change occurred a year ago but the domain name change didn't occur until June. Return-Path: Received: from NIC.DDN.MIL by hqafsc-vax.af.mil with SMTP ; Fri, 15 Sep 89 02:33:29 EDT Received: from A.ISI.EDU by NIC.DDN.MIL with TCP; Thu, 14 Sep 89 21:53:16 PDT Date: Fri 15 Sep 89 00:48:41-EDT From: Dan Lynch Subject: Re: DoD --> CMOT and SNMP To: robert@trwind.ind.trw.com cc: mcsun!cernvax!cgch!wasc@uunet.uu.net, tcp-ip@nic.ddn.mil, lynch@A.ISI.EDU In-Reply-To: <8909071738.AA04966@trwind.ind.TRW.COM> Message-ID: <12526341449.22.LYNCH@A.ISI.EDU> Robert, I've been away, so sorry for a late reply, but I have also had a chance to see other replies and must add my two cents worth. OSI stands for Open Systems Interconnection. ISO stands for International Organization for Standardization. (Yes, I know that the English/American abbreviation for that should be IOS, but it ain't that way this time...) OSi describes a model of communication among consenting systems. It was described in an ISO document many years ago. Then ISO committees began to fill out thier interpretations of how to accomplish the lofty goals of the OSI model. All of those "interpretations" have come aout as ISO documents. It is easy to mix the two acronyms up because of their use of the same alphabet symbols. I used to find it useful to make the distinction batween OSI and OSI. I thought (and still do think) that the TCP/IP suite of protocols are quite in line withthe OSI "model". So is DECNET, so is SNA, etc. (I mean, hey, an application has just got to shove the bits out the "right" interface/wire to an equally receptive application at the target system; how many ways can you describe to do that? In 1976 it was an accomplishment to even make that description. By this tim ein history it is a freshman problem, right?) So, today, we should quit splitting haris, and let the meaning of "OSI" be those protocols that are promulgated by ISO with regard to communications between consenting computers. (ISO also sets standards for cement ingredients, numbers of threads per inch/millimeter for screws, etc...) In other words, it is a waste of energy for someone to say they are OSI complinat unless they use the actual ISO protocols. We technologists may be able to sort his all out, but our customers should not have to sort out our internal debates. Let us let them see one label. That label is OSI. Dan -------