Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: smith_w@apollo.hp.com (Walter Smith) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Who do you say Christ is? (and other questions) Message-ID: Date: 13 Sep 89 07:45:25 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Apollo Computer, Chelmsford, MA Lines: 39 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article jamesa@amadeus.wr.tek.com (James Akiyama) writes: >Genesis 2:4b states: > > Gen 2:4b When the Lord God made the earth and the heavens-- (NIV) > >This "Lord" is the Hebrew YHWH ("Yahweh" or "Jehovah"). Thus Colossians seems >to attribute the creation to Christ, while Genesis attributes it to Yahweh >(or Jehovah) God. This supports that Jesus is the same God as the Father. I also did research into the tract James is examining here. Mine was directed at the section called 'What the ante-nicene fathers taught". The JW's claim Tertullian, Justin Martyr, Iraneaus, etc., were anti-trinity. I went to the library and read some of their works, like Tertullian on the soul, Dialog with Trypho (justin Martyr), etc. What I found was that these people said things quite different from what the JW imply. This did not suprise me. What did, was that the early christian writers I read all believed that Jesus Christ was the same God who spoke to Moses & the Old Testament prophets; that Jesus was indeed YHWH (giving Moses the 10 commandents, etc.) of the OT. I had heard people say that they believed Jesus was mentioned in certain parts of the OT, but I was not aware that the view of the promenant early writers was that Jesus was the YHWH of the OT. If Jesus Christ really is the same YHWH who spoke to the prophets, then the trinity (or at least the deity of Christ) seems naturally to follow. Walter [This is partly a matter of terminology. It took several centuries to develop the philosophical concepts needed to say what the Church felt should be said. Thus you should not expect Justin Martyr to say the same words as the Nicene Creed. However one can see recognizably trinitarian thought in all of these people. In fact, according to my information Tertullian was the first person actually to use the term trinitas. You'll get an opportunity to judge for yourself, since a later posting includes some quotations from Justin and Tertullian. --clh]