Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: jeffjs@ihlpb.att.com (Jeffrey Jay Sargent) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Who do you say Christ is? (and other questions) Message-ID: Date: 13 Sep 89 10:22:29 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories Lines: 60 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu A couple of small thoughts inspired by Dave Mielke's article -- We could use a note on this first point from Michael Siemon or someone else similarly versed in textual criticism, but according to the footnote in the NIV, I John 5:7 appears in "late manuscripts of the Vulgate", i.e., it stands a good chance of being a late interpolation, not part of the original text. This makes it a bit shaky of a foundation for proving the oneness of the Trinity. On a more encouraging note, the way I like to think of Jesus's "Why do you call Me good? No one is good -- except God alone" is that He was, with a wise gleam in His eye, saying to the rich young ruler, "Think about what you're saying; do you realize what you're calling Me by addressing Me as 'good'?" It looks to me like an instance of Jesus's Socratic humor. Which brings up an interesting suggestion: Those who tend to think of Jesus as invariably utterly solemn and serious ought to read the Gospels with an eye to seeing all His humorous (though certainly pungent) utterances -- like His hyperbole in the Sermon on the Mount, to make a brief answer to another article that I hope I can get back to later at greater length. Back to the "rich young ruler" story for a moment: One time not too long ago when I read that (in the Mark version I think), I remember being startled by the sentence "The disciples were amazed at his words" -- i.e., at His statement that it is hard for the rich to enter the kingdom of God. I guess this comes from being an affluent American Christian, since much (but by no means all) of American Christianity seems to either ignore the issue of riches or turn it on its head by figuring that being a rich -- or shall we say, financially blessed -- Christian necessarily means that you're in good with God! How many times had I blithely read over that passage and that statement of Christ's before, noddingly accepting it, ignoring its tremendous punch -- which was blatantly obvious, indeed shocking, to the disciples? -- -- Jeff Sargent att!ihlpb!jeffjs (UUCP), jeffjs@ihlpb.att.com (Internet) AT&T Bell Laboratories, IH 5A-433, Naperville, IL (312) 979-5284 When you have eliminated the improbable, then whatever remains, however impossible, must be the truth. [I'm not sure what question you are asking. You seem to be asking whether I John 5:7 as a whole is a later addition. The NIV footnote may be misleading. It says "late manuscripts of the Vulgate 'testify in heaven: the Father ...' ". They don't mean that the verse appears only in late manuscripts of the Vulgate. What appears in those manuscripts is an alternative version of vs 7 and 8, which they proceed to give you in the footnote. The version of vs. 7 and 8 that NIV gives as the primary text is present in the major uncials, many of the Church Fathers, early translations into various languages, etc. The UBS Greek (2nd edition), which adopts the same text as the main NIV reading, classifies this text as A, meaning virtually certain. The alternatives, such as the one that NIV quotes in its footnote, appear to be expansions on the original. There is no indication in the UBS apparatus that any document omits the passage completely. In case people have other translations, here is the text as agreed on by the UBS Greek, RSV, NIV, TEV, Jerusalem Bible, and New American Bible (in the TEV translation): "There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and all three agree." (I John 5:7-8) It appears from Dave Mielke's quotation that he is using a translation based on those late manuscripts of the Vulgate that the NIV footnote is talking about. --clh]