Path: utzoo!attcan!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!cs.utexas.edu!usc!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: jking@apollo.hp.com (John King) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Who do you say Christ is? (and other questions) Message-ID: Date: 17 Sep 89 18:02:22 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Apollo Computer, Chelmsford, Mass. Lines: 63 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu Our moderator offers some interesting questions: > - Christ is in one way or another identified with God: > - Jesus forgives sins, which only God should be able to do Men also had the power to forgive sins. At John 20:23, Jesus is addressing his disciples saying, " If you forgive the sins of any person, they are forgiven..." > - The rather odd episode of John 18:6, where Jesus seems to > apply the name YHWH to himself, and everyone falls to the > ground. Do they fall to the ground because they think he is God, or because he is the Messiah? I guess the conclusion the trinitarians attempt to force is that he was saying he was God because he says "I AM". They are relating it back to Ex 3:14 were many bibles translate the Hebrew "Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh" as "I AM who I AM". This is a weak arguement to start with. But it becomes ludicrous since in Hebrew there is no present tense of the verb "to be". The only proper way of expressing it then is I WILL BE WHO I WILL BE. In short, what God says will happen, will happen. In the very next verse (15) he then tells Moses his name (YHWH) for the first time. Jack [I refer you to the appendix on "Ego Eimi" in the Anchor Bible commentary on John, on which these comments are based. As I'm sure you know, the exact translation of Ex 3:14 is disputed. NJPS (which I quote primarily because one certainly cannot attribute to them any desire to be Trinitarian) simply transliterates the Heb, and in a footnote says 'Meaning of Heb. uncertain, variously translated "I Am That I Am", "I Am Who I Am", "I Will Be What I Will Be", etc.' It is also sometimes read as causitive case (don't ask me -- I don't claim to know Heb), and translated "I am 'He who causes to be'". However the issue in dealing with a Greek gospel would seem to be how the Greek words were understood by Greek-speaking Jews. The LXX (the standard Greek translation of the OT at the time the NT was written) uses "ego eimi" as a designation for YHWH in Is 51:12, and probably Is 52:6. It also translates "I am YHWH" in Is 45:18 as "ego eimi". This phrase occurs a number of times in John. Sometimes it is part of a simple statement "I am XXX". The places where it seems most clearly to be saying something unusual are Jn 8:58 ("Before Abraham even came into existence, I AM"), and Jn 8:24, 8:28, and 13:19 (all referring to people believing that I AM). You may if you wish understand an implict "I am the Messiah", but I'm somewhat dubious, particularly in the case of 8:58. Jn 6:20 is slightly more ambiguous. "ego eimi" is a particular favorite of John's. But there are a few interesting examples in the Synoptics. Mk 14:62 = Lk. 22:70: Jesus is asked if he is the Messiah. He says "ego eimi". The onlookers tear their garments, seeing it as blasphemy. It is not blasphemy to claim to be the Messiah. Mt 14:27 = Mk 6:50: "ego eimi; do not be afraid" This one is more ambiguous. Similarly Lk 24:36. Note that I do not claim that these passages alone prove the Trinitarian case. I mention them as one piece of evidence that you should take account of. I'm not sure I'd say they mean directly "I == YHWH". However they do seem to mean something strong enough to cause Jews to either fall to the ground or tear their garments. Even if you choose to interpret them as meaning "I am the Messiah", you should factor this into your idea of what Messiah means. --clh]