Path: utzoo!attcan!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!iuvax!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: jking@apollo.hp.com (John King) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: JW's and Scripture Message-ID: Date: 17 Sep 89 18:13:49 GMT Organization: Apollo Computer, Chelmsford, Mass. Lines: 160 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu Lance A. Beckner INTERNET: lab@fibercom.com writes: >The JW's insist that Christ's second coming occurred in 1914. In >order for this to be true, He obviously had to have come >spiritually only. The problem with this is that after Jesus >ascension, the angels said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand >gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you >into heaven, will so come IN LIKE MANNER as you SAW Him go into >heaven." (Acts 1:11, emphasis mine) That is not quite it. JW do teach that his presence (perosea--Math 24:3) began in 1914 when Satan was case out of the heavens and down to the earth (Rev 12:9). That was just the BEGINNING of the distress that we would experience in the end times before the earth is cleansed. >So we know, as do the JW's, that as Jesus was after His >resurrection, so He will return. The JW's therefore deny that >Jesus Christ's body was resurrected, and insist that He was raised >spiritually. Scripture states otherwise: >[various scripture sited "proving" he had a body when appearing to >disciples -- Luke 24:39, John 20:27, etc] We see many instances of angels materializing bodies and appearing to men. We even read of accounts of these "fleshly" angels eating with men. Correct? Why do JW believe Jesus was resurrected as spirit? To quote you, as always, the answer is found in Scripture: 1 Cor 15:45,50 -- "The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a lifegiving SPIRIT.... however I say that FLESH AND BLOOD cannot inherit God's kingdom." 1 Peter 3:18 -- "...he being put to death in the FLESH, but being made alive in the SPIRIT." >This of course, brings another question: "How did He vanish from >their sight?" also, "How can He appear in a room when the doors are >shut? (see John 20:19). >My answer to this is: "I do not know, but I accept it by faith >without throwing away parts of scripture that make Jesus out to be >a liar or a deceiver." I can understand your ambivalence. >John 2:19-21 Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this > temple, and in three days I will raise it up." > > Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years > to build this temple, and you will raise it up in > three days?" > But He was speaking of the temple of His body. Correct. His spiritual body (1 Cor 15: 44) >Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the > sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its > light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the > powers of the heavens will be shaken. > Has any of this happened yet? >Matt 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in > heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will > mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on > the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. > The tribes of the earth have not mourned at His coming because > He has not yet returned. Is this literal or figurative? If it were literal, as Jesus appears coming down in a cloud over Manhatten, would the also see him in the Outback of Australia?! If a blind man says, "I see!" Are we to believe that he is literally seeing, or he perceives and understands? (please read Eph 1:18) >Jesus Himself warns us to beware of those that claim that He has >already returned. He also tells us that those that say He has >returned will be very convincing (as the JW's are): >Matt 24:23-27 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the > Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. For false > christs and false prophets will arise and show great > signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible, > even the elect. See I have told you beforehand. > Therefore, if any say to you, 'Look He is in the > desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner > rooms!' do not believe it. For as the lightning > comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also > will the coming of the Son of Man be. See above. JW teach that his 'perosea' has begun, not that he has returned. Also what miraculous 'signs & wonders' have JWs performed??? We have never healed anyone, we don't speak in tongues, we claim no miricles. It seems to me it is a large segment of Christendom that makes these claims. >Must You be "Born Again"? >The JW's insist that being "Born Again" is something that happens >at the resurrection. Let's look at scripture: >John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I > say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see > the kingdom of God." > >John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, > unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he > cannot enter the kingdom of God." >These two passages don't prove much one way or the other. But >let's read on: >John 1:12,13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the ~~~~~~~~ > right to become children of God, even to those who > believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, > ~~~~ > nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of > man, but of God. >Those who RECEIVED (past tense) WERE BORN (past tense). Being born >again is something that happens when you receive Jesus. Good point, but let's look at the whole picture. Paul amplifies by saying at Rom 8:19,23, " For the eager expectation of the creation is WAITING for the revealing of the sons of God...[waiting for what?] .but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely the spirit, yes we ourselves groan within ourselves while we are ernestly WAITING for adoption as sons, THE RELEASE FROM OUR BODIES by ransom." In short, in order to be reborn (or born again if you prefer), they must first die. That is when they become 'born again' adpoted sons of God. Jack [If you are serious about applying I Cor 15:44 to Jesus' resurrected presence, then the difference may not be as serious as it appears. I don't think most Christians believe Jesus simply had his original body unchanged. At least I've always assumed it was in some sense transformed, as indicated by his ability to come through walls, etc. The term "spiritual body" in I Cor 15;44 seems to mean something that is not pure spirit, i.e. it is in some sense a body, but the hardware in which it is implemented is not the same as our earthly bodies. If this is what you mean by being raised spiritually, I wonder how much this differs from the orthodox concept. --clh]