Path: utzoo!attcan!utgpu!watmath!iuvax!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: jking@apollo.hp.com (John King) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Who do you say Christ is? (and other questions) Message-ID: Date: 22 Sep 89 02:18:18 GMT Organization: Apollo Computer, Chelmsford, Mass. Lines: 97 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu [Lance asks how a created being could fit the description of Christ's role in creation given in Col 1:16 --clh] Why. As the Only-begotten son of God he has been elevated to a superior position (. Phil 2:9). Note who did the elevating. Prov 8:22-31 describes the Messiah as the "master worker". >John 1:3 was then used to show that nothing was made that Jesus did >not make. Stop here. All the apostle is saying is that God created everything through Jesus. Back in vs. 1, John states how the Word was in the beginning. Since God has no beginning, the distinction is clear. Jesus (the Word) was the beginning of creation (Rev 3:14). >Col 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Note Rev. 5:6 were it states that the Lamb has 7 spirits of God. Seven represents heavenly completeness (remember Rev is very symbolic). This means Jesus has the fullness of the holy spirit. Also, as God's first creation, he is the image of the Living God. [some passages dealing with "I AM", John 8:58: before Abraham was, I AM --clh] As mentioned in my previous post, since their in no present tense of the verb "to be" in Hebrew, to translate Ex 3:14 "I AM WHO I AM" either shows a serious lack of scholarship, or a clear bias to fit doctrine to scripture. Besides, his name is given not in verse 14, but verse 15. [Lk 2:11, referring to Christ as savior --clh] Jude 25 states, "to the only God our Saviour, THROUGH Jesus Christ our Lord.." 2 things to note. Here is one more of many examples in scripture where Jesus is clearly differentiated from God. Secondly, ultimatley God is mankinds Saviour, but it was THROUGH Jesus since he became the ransom for mankind. [Heb 1:6, saying the Jesus is worshipped by angels --clh] Greek is a far more descriptive language than english. The word proskuneo is just one more example. In the parable sited in Math 18, the slave is obviously not worshipping his master. He is bowing before him in homage and respect. The only word in english which comes close to the intent of the context is 'obeisance'. Jesus is certainly worthy of this, but he is not to be worshipped. For example, who should we pray to, Jesus or the Father (Math 6:9)? >God (the Father) refers to Jesus as God > But to the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and > ever;" Heb 1:8 "But with reference to the Son he says, 'God is your throne forever'" -NWT. What other bibles agree with this rendering? Try these: The Bible-An American Translation -- Goodspeed The Bible in Living English -- Byington A New Translation of the Bible -- Moffatt The 20th Century New Testament B.F. Westcott goes into a nice analysis of Ps 45:6,7 from which Heb 1:8 is quoted. ["The Epistle to the Hebrews"; pg 25-26] >Stephen prayed to Jesus. > And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, > "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Acts 7:59 "And as they stoned Stephen, he made appeal and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." - NWT. This rendering also agrees with the NIV, LB, RS, JB, and the Greek text." Also note that in vs 55 it pictures Stephen seeing the glory of GOD, and Jesus at his right side. This is profoundly significant since once again there is a clear distinction between GOD (the Father) and Jesus. >I am out of time for today. Hopefully, I will be able to post >something tomorrow that will show how JW's are wrong about some >obvious biblical truths. Please don't bother, Lance. There are about a half dozen other people on the net who are continually bleating about JWs. Nothing you quoted above is new. They have been flying around the net for years. Whatever religion you practice, Lance, is fine with me. I have no intention of attacking it on a public network. Please show the same restraint. Jack [I understand that this looked like a typical attempt to throw proof texts at you, so I see why you reacted this way. But I've talked with Lance privately, and I think he is genuinely interested in understanding you. --clh]