Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!ginosko!gem.mps.ohio-state.edu!wuarchive!mailrus!ames!sun-barr!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: barry1@ihlpa.att.com (Barry O Olson) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Trent Keywords: Anathema as a death penalty Message-ID: Date: 23 Sep 89 08:05:12 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories Lines: 82 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu John writes: >-- Trent did not (so far as I have been able to find-- > Barry and others are free to correct me if they find otherwise) > prescribe the death penalty for anathematizing heresy. (So > far, I haven't found anything in the decrees concerning > any sort of secular punishment.) And you won't. My intent on emphasizing Trent with its accompanying anathemas was to point out its potential for abuse from overzealous popes, bishops, and clergy, at their own discretion, when they felt it was warranted. Trent leaves the door open for such abuse as is the case of the Rc reaction to the reformation. She was losing her grip on control. How does this grip on control differ from say China today? How has China reacted to her perceived loss of control? Or any other despotic government for that matter?(not to change the subject, but as an example) >Now, it is no secret that in other instances, people in the RC Church >did call on secular authorities to punish heretics, including >kill them. We've already noted how Innocent III preached a >crusade against the Albigensians in France, in which heretics >were bound to get killed. (As it turned out, so did a number >of Catholics-- see my previous post on Beziers. I've verified the >massacre in Jedin & Dolan, ed., _Handbook of Church History_. The >"Kill them all" quote I have not been able to verify in a second >source-- the quote is quite possibly apocryphal.) This is true. It didn't stop with the Albigensis either. It was extended to almost every reformer, except the ones that got away. The church has killed her own many times in the past. If the pope or bishop, or one of the clergy has a bone to pick with someone, and hates that someone with a passion, They will find a way to label them a heretic(fallen member of the church), and justify the confiscation of their property, and order their death. Please read Foxes _Book of Martyrs_, i don't want to quote the entire book on the net. This book is an eyewitness account of the abuses indulged by the church representatives against the reformers. >It also became common practice for the Inquisition (established >in 1215 by Lateran IV) to hand over to the "secular arm" >those they had convicted of heresy. Supposedly, this was accompanied >with a plea that the heretic not be injured or blood shed >[Tierney & Painter and the Encyclopedia Brittanica]. It seems as >if no one took this seriously, including the Church. In 1224, >Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II called for the burning of heretics, >and by 1231 Pope Gregory IX had incorporated Frederick's penalties >into his "Excommunicamus" constitution, so that "from then on, >animadverso debita became synonymous with death at the stake." >[Jedin & Dolan]. Yes, and in light of the infallibility of the decrees of a pope all the way back to constantine, it is unlikely that it was removed. Hidden in legalise maybe, but not removed. >What was the status of this constitution three centuries later, at the >time of Trent? That I don't know yet, and I'd be interested in >learning more from historians out there. Probably a number of >heretics were killed on the basis of the decrees mentioned above >and the sorts of heresies that Trent concerned itself with. >But on the basis of Trent by itself, so far as I've read, one >cannot find reason to condemn someone to death for any of the >heresies which Trent details. True, and you won't, as i stated in the above responses. Barry >John Ockerbloom >-- [The Catholic Church is by no means that only organization with this problem. Power corrupts Protestants, Communists, and just about everybody else too. I have no objection to bringing up these things and making sure that they do not happen again. But it would perhaps be more useful for Protestants to be wary of persecutions carried out by Protestants. It's always easier to ask the other guy to reform. --clh]