Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!wuarchive!texbell!texsun!newstop!sun!imagen!atari!kbad
From: kbad@atari.UUCP (Ken Badertscher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
Subject: Re: Atari, TOS and GEM (LONG!)
Message-ID: <1719@atari.UUCP>
Date: 7 Oct 89 00:55:27 GMT
References: <45ede34f.71d0@apollo.HP.COM>
Distribution: na
Organization: Atari Corp., Sunnyvale, CA
Lines: 199

rehrauer@apollo.HP.COM (Steve Rehrauer) writes:

| Recently in this group I called Atari's TOS and GEM software "junk".

You are not the first, and no way will you be the last to do so.
And thank you for your reasonable apology - something rarely seen
after a "blathering" post.

And now... on with the Inquisition.  Steve, you ask a _LOT_ of questions!
Here we go...

| So, Atari, are we ever going to see any substantive improvements to GEM?

I consider Rainbow TOS a "substantive improvement."  All the same,
Atari is still working on improving and updating the operating system
for the ST series.

| Do you own the rights to the Atari incarnation to GEM, such that you can
| even do so?

See above.

|  Can we at least have resolution-independency [...]?

The VDI is quite resolution independent.  It's fairly simple to write
resolution independant code using the facilities of the VDI.  Providing
similar facilities in the AES, however, is a harder job than you
realize (come with me, if you will, into the deep dark recesses of the
AES sources... MOOOhaHAhaHA...).  Keep in mind, though, that the TT
supports six resolutions on one monitor.  That fact says something
about what we are doing with the TT OS.

| Why does David Beckmeyer say that you have never shown
| any interest in incorporating his multi-tasking kernel into the ST? [...]
| why not multi-tasking for the TT if not older models?

I have exchanged mail with Mr. Beckemeyer, and it is my PERSONAL
opinion that Atari could do much worse than adopt his RTX
implementation outright for an ST based multitasking standard.  RTX
works well, and includes a lot of what we need to multitask GEMDOS.  It
does not support everything we need to support, however.  I have not
seen statistics on compatibility of GEM applications (although I know
that BDT has made an attempt at allowing GEM multitasking with the VSH
manager).

Atari will not release anything less than a thoroughly robust, compatible
multitasking OS.  You _will_ see multitasking on the TT someday.  I make
that statement with considerable wailing and gnashing of teeth... I do
NOT want people coming out with "Where's the multitasking?  Where's
the multitasking?"  It is regrettable, but true: the more whining _I_
hear about a particular thing, the less inclined I am to work hard on
it.  With encouragement, we may both get what we want.

| You are aware of it, are you not?  Are there technical difficulties?
| Legal difficulties?  Ego difficulties?

Yes, I use MT-C shell myself, but it's only a shell.
Legal difficutlies?  Perhaps, but I'm no lawyer.
Ego problems?  Absolutely not.  If something works, and it's solid,
I personally have no qualms about "stealing from the best." ;-)

|  If the TT is as fast as the '030 is potentially capable of making it...

The TT is fast.  Quite fast.  Trust me.

| will Atari release something like PC-Ditto
| on it, to provide (free of charge) MS-DOS emulation at (I'm guessing)
| XT-clone speeds?

MS-DOS emulation free of charge?  Hmm... I don't think so.  Please be
reasonable - if Atari provides you with something of value, don't you think
Atari should charge a FAIR price?  I don't doubt that an MS-DOS engine
will appear from some quarter for TT, and it will probably perform very
well, but I don't see Atari giving one away.

| How about
| incorporating other, less drastic improvements -- such as the executable-
| compression scheme used in products like PACKER and DC SQUISH?

From what I understand of how these programs work, it really isn't
necessary to ROM anything to support compressed executables.  As is
demonstrated by their very existence, it's fairly straightforward
to pull off such a thing with the existing OS.

| Or the palette-switching scheme used by Spectrum512 to get the full
| hardware palette of 512 colors on a single screen -- could ANTIC
| Software (or whomever owns the technique) be persuaded to liscense it
| to developers? Do they already?

I don't know whether Antic licenses the Spectrum graphics kernel or not.
If they don't - I agree with you, they should!  As you point out, though,
this is a software type of thing that is best accomplished in a runtime
library.

It will be possible with TT to make some very interesting new graphics
modes available.  But because of the flexibility of the new video
system, it would be very hard to please all of the people with ROMmed
code.  Atari supported software library routines are a valid
alternative.

| How about collecting
| some of the best public domain widgets, cleaning them up (to give them
| coherent user-interfaces, if they have such) and distributing them on
| an extra disk or two to new owners?

I think this sort of thing is much better accomplished by dealers and
user groups.  Atari could never hope to provide the level of localized,
caring support which dealers and user groups can.  Most user groups have
extensive PD library collections.  Many offer the collections for sale
via mail, at a nominal price.

There is a company associated with, I believe, Paradise Computing, which
is working on a PD CD-ROM disk that contains hundreds of titles.
We are working with them to make this disk available.

|  At least a RAM disk would be nice
| -- is that a feature of the TOS 1.4 release, by the way?  Wouldn't it
| be fairly easy to add a new device for a RAM disk to TOS, so that, for
| example, formatting the "Z:" drive or some such would create a RAM disk?

No and no.  MetaDOS, the extension to GEMDOS which allows device drivers
for such things as the CD ROM, would be hampered by such a scheme.  And
as I mentioned before - application software does not belong in the
operating system.  There are a wide variety of PD, shareware, and
commercial RAMdisks available, and they all have their plusses and
minuses.  We could not hope to please everyone with our own RAMdisk
system software - there are much more important system software issues
being dealt with at the moment.

| Can we ever expect to see the 6-desk-accessory limit lengthened [...]?

I'd like to see more desk accessories available myself.  When the AES
multitiasks, the definition of a desk accessory is going to become
rather fuzzy.  In the mean time, there is MultiDesk, from CodeHead
software, which allows you to use a virtually unlimited number of desk
accessories.

| Are TOS and GEM in "maintenance, we-won't-touch-it-until-it-bites
| mode"?

TOS is in a constant state of flux.  Hopefully we are successfully
combatting entropy, and making it better as it goes.  And Atari has
recently released the Rainbow TOS upgrade.

|  Is Atari planning to do anything with its CD-ROM player, [...]
| will Atari release anything on CD-ROM, or is it a box waiting 
| for applications?

CD-ROM development systems are available now to registered developers.
The cost is $420, which is quite a deal, considering what you get.
Contact Gail Johnson at Atari if you're interested.  The CD-ROM is
a box waiting for applications, which are being worked on by several
developers.

| Shouldn't Atari do something in the way of promoting recommended
| standard methods to do things like printer-drivers, visual appearance
| of GEM dialogues, etc?

Yes.  We do have a printer driver construction kit for GDOS printer
drivers - it is available to registered developers.  Again, contact
Gail Johnson for information.

Visual appearance of dialogs?  I would prefer to see a consensus from
the developer community on an issue like this, rather than a decree
from Atari declaring "Thou shalt...".  But Atari should and will
take an active role in any such standards creation.

| Are the STE and TT European machines, or will we ever see them here
| in the U.S.?

You will most assuredly see STE and TT in the US.  Sam Tramiel said in
his latest live GEnie conference that STE and Stacy will be shipping in
the US in October, and TT before the end of the year.  STE is already
for sale in Europe - notably in France, since they we lost a good deal
of inventory there when Atari France burned to the ground last month.
But there are dozens of variables in production, distribution,
marketing, sales, dealer network...  It's best not to ask "When?" too
much.  Atari is doing its best to get the new products to the dealers
in a timely manner.  The best answer is that they will be available when
they are available.  

|  When can we expect to actually be able to walk into an Atari-
| authorized dealer (assuming any still exist in the immediate area) and
| see one, let alone consider buying one?

I just said don't ask when! ;-)  Really, "when" is the hardest question
to answer when it comes to Atari products in the US, for the reasons
I mentioned before.

| Will Atari advertise either machine in this country, in magazines, say?

Absolutely.  I forsee an agressive advertising policy towards the new
machines.  Sam Tramiel said as much in his last live GEnie conference. 
But don't ask me when. <hehe>

-- 
   |||   Ken Badertscher  (ames!atari!kbad)
   |||   Atari R&D System Software Engine
  / | \  #include <disclaimer>